Calling ALL English coaches.... (yes, that includes YOU!)

[Podfrey]

Dear English Blood Bowl Coaches,

I am delighted to see that so many of you have signed up for the EurOpen in Cardiff this year, and I hope that even more will do so over the next couple of weeks before registration closes.

The concept and vision of “Team England” was an inclusive group who would come together to discuss interest in the Euros event (both EuroBowl and EurOpen), select a EuroBowl team, arrange flights and accommodation, debate roster selection, report on practice, collate shirt orders and socialising - then to leave a permanent memory for those that followed. “Team England” was never meant to be restricted to just the 8 players on the EuroBowl team.

One of the principles of the Euros is that it is representative of the views of that nation’s coaches. With only a dozen or so coaches participating in discussions about the EuroBowl team, it clearly leaves a large proportion of English coaches whose voices haven’t been heard. This suggested that the current process may not be working as best it could.

As some of you are aware the current location for discussing Team England business was temporarily suspended pending a drive to engage with all English coaches, of which my discussions over this last weekend at the NAFC were the first step.

There were many views shared and ideas generated, but on reflection I think that it’s best they are posted here by individuals so that there can be no question of me misrepresenting them. The topics raised included where we discuss Team England matters, communications, inclusivity, practice sessions, shirts and selection processes (Captain & EuroBowl team).

So rather than me rattle on, I’d like to hand the floor open to the rest of the English community to express their thoughts and views on Team England (whether or not you spoke to me at the weekend). Please remember that all opinions are equally valid, and I ask that posters respect this; no one is “wrong” in what they think.

OK, Go for it.....

Geoff Porritt
aka Podfrey

[lunchmoney]

For me and my locals the first issue is discussion location.
Google search results:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TeamEnglandBB
https://en-gb.facebook.com/TeamEnglandBB/
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/teamengland
https://teamengland.freeforums.org

as well as here and the NAF forum (actually scratch that last one, I've commented many times that the forum software on the NAF is woefully out of date and not good, so not much discussion there), and Twitter.

Pick one rather than the 4 or 5 forums that appear to be in use at the moment.

(Actually I would suggest FB and one forum. As much as I personally hate FB I am know I am in the minority in the Western world.)

[TheDoc]

I'd agree with LunchMoney on the forums. Pick one. Stick to it. You'll get more people interacting if they know where to find you.

My points fall around selection. Now I am going to throw up a couple of caveats first:

(1) I have not put myself forward for selection to Team England as I play 2 tournaments a year (maybe 3 maximum) and don't feel it's appropriate when there are people who do more for the game/community than me.

(2) I understand that selection of the team can be tough for the Captain so this is not a dig at any captains past and present (any decision they make will be wrong in the majority of peoples opinions).

Ok to my points:

Is the team selection representative of the coaches in England as a whole?
I'm not sure it is. There are coaches who have long supported the game and played in various countries/tournaments etc which is great and they should be chosen on their merit. However, there are coaches who don't play as much BB any more and have been chosen on their previous Eurobowl/World cup records. This isn't fair in my opinion. Why should they take a spot over someone who plays in regular tournaments at a good level of coaching, supports the community etc? Surely the selection should be on merit of actions between the big tournaments and not on reputation. It'd give more people a chance to participate and represent their country at a higher level. I can think of at least 2 coaches who weren't picked for the current team who should be given a chance (please see caveat 2).

Making selection fairer:
Could there be a selection committee put in place? A Captain is elected as is the current way, you put your name into the hat for selection and then the Captain plus another 2-3 coaches from different parts of the country/experience levels pick the team on merit of results. The top coaches should always rise to the top but it also allows some wildcards to be chosen (as long as they fit the criteria of 5 tournaments a year etc etc). If you play regular blood bowl you'll know who's doing well with what race and can choose appropriately and then you can represent the country better. Also, the Captain is not blamed for their decisions or look biased in any way. The question is how do you select the committee? Maybe this has to be a community vote like the captain but then you'd potentially get biased results. You need a mediator who has no vested interest in the tournament and would be open to helping choose the final 8 coaches. I really believe that this would help broaden the people who are chosen and keep our "elite" players on their toes for selection knowing someone else could nick a spot.

Obviously we all want a competitive Team England but also an inclusive one. A compromise can be found. I'm happy to reply to comments or direct questions.

Cheers

Ade

[Ringbeard]

RE: Lunchmoney’s point about the different forums, I think the Tapatalk one and the Team England one are actually the same; Tapatalk is an app that lets people access forums more easily on their phones etc.

Personally I think having both a forum and a Facebook page/group is a good thing, many people prefer to only use one of the two.

[Garrick]

As a disinterested party I thought I would share what Team Scotland do.

We have the Scottish Championship (results posted on TFF) and the top 3 are automatically in the team. The Captain is elected by a vote of ALL Scots attending / at the previous Eurobowl and he chooses the rest of the team. We have a tiny player pool compared to England but we have tried to be democratic and base membership of the national team on merit.

Our inclusive philosophy has all Scots attending the Eurobowl, national team members and EurOpen teams, included in the "Scotland Squad" with access to the national shirts, dice, accommodation etc. I know this may not be relevant but here it is any.

[Pipey]

For a bit more context here's the current selection document in sum:

(occurred to me some might not be aware of it)

  

Team members should:

*have attended at least 5 tournaments in the 12-month period prior to team selection

*generally have a good record of attendance in previous years 

*have preferably attended at least one European tournament in the past

Each year the eight members of Team England are selected by the captain [subjectively based on soft principles of selection].

To captain the Eurobowl team, an individual must have previously attended/played at a Eurobowl.

This entails that each year the captain will always be selected from within the set of current and previous Team England members who are active within the community.


If more than one individual from within the group puts himself forward as candidate, then members of the Team England forum [any English NAF member] will vote to determine who will be captain.

The full text is on the Team England forum.

The doc was written on the Team England forum in 2009. I compiled it with input from half a dozen or so then Team England members (primarily Hangus, Grumbledook, Ironjaw, Podfrey). Initially discussions were restricted to team members only, later some non-Team England players were asked to participate via TFF (Joemanji, Matt While, Gazza had input).

The basic document is still used now with a few minor changes which were voted upon on said forum in subsequent years.

As Podfrey says the question is whether this is representative of the English community today, nearly 10 years after it was written and with so few involved at that time (even fewer who are still actively playing tournaments). This is at a time when debate has receded on forums as already observed.

As the author of the original document I feel the process is due for review and welcome Podfrey triggering this debate. I have a few observations myself but I'd rather hear others opinions first (not least since I've been heavily involved in TE discussions in the past)

[zulu]

Well clearly your selection policy is working well, having won 5 out the last 6 Eurobowls. The rest of us would like to propose to additions to your policy .

At least one player should have started playing in the previous year.

One player needs to play a stunty team.

[Pipey]

Sure

If the only requirement was that England win then there would be nothing to discuss.

NAF approval rules / EB Charter ask for consensus within communities; that’s what’s needed. I’ve no doubt England could win whatever system is used

[TheDoc]

My issue boils down to this point mainly:

Each year the eight members of Team England are selected by the captain [subjectively based on soft principles of selection].

I quite like the Scottish selection of the "Scottish Championship" choosing the top 3 coaches. Also I am a big fan of at least one new cap per tournament policy the team has. Maybe there is something to be had here?

I'd also like to bring up "Coaching"/practice games for up and coming coaches who want to get better at the game. Apart from playing multiple games would the better coaches every be willing to walkthrough a match/couple of matches with coaches to help them with strategy and team building? That'd help build the pool of players who could be competitive at the tournaments.

[Jip]

As some of you are aware the current location for discussing Team England business was temporarily suspended pending a drive to engage with all English coaches, of which my discussions over this last weekend at the NAFC were the first step.

I've been playing for a couple of years, so have heard bits and pieces about Team England, but I didn't even know there was a forum (let alone several!) that these discussions took place. I actually asked Lycos about it at Waterbowl earlier this year and his take on it was really clear and consistent, matching Pipey's post, above. It does seem a bit of a boys' club, but I guess that's inevitable when they all end up playing each other at tournaments all the time. I've also found, from my experience at my first NAFC last weekend, people were more keen to talk about the issue rather than address it. I didn't understand how the team worked, so I asked Lycos. He told me, so now I understand.

Our inclusive philosophy has all Scots attending the Eurobowl, national team members and EurOpen teams, included in the "Scotland Squad" with access to the national shirts, dice, accommodation etc. I know this may not be relevant but here it is any.

I'd say it's very relevant and, having heard people talking about it all weekend at NAFC, it's almost certainly envied, too!

Well clearly your selection policy is working well, having won 5 out the last 6 Eurobowls. The rest of us would like to propose to additions to your policy .

Ha, you posted this as I was writing this up, glad I checked! That was my controversial point over the weekend when talking about this - it's tough to critique something that works! I like the idea of wildcard newer coaches but, unless that's something all teams would take on, it puts us at an immediate disadvantage, unless some prodigal Neo from the Matrix of Blood Bowl emerges one year and wipes every one off the table.


So, how do you pick a team? Voting clearly weights itself towards the more popular players or ideas, who might not be the best. I don't recall seeing anything about 'applying' for consideration (not that I would have, at this point, but I can't say I don't fancy it in the future). With that said, I'm sure it was out there, but maybe it just got lost in the mix so there's something about advertising.

For me, it would be a linear process, very similar to what Pipey has shared (and Lycos told me in person). Whoever has performed the best over the calendar year should be likely to be on the proverbial plane. I agree that presence in the community needs to be a factor but, where possible and practical, the best players at the time should always be picked. To use a sportsball comparison, Stoke’s Jack Butland is a likely candidate to make the England World Cup squad, despite playing for a club at the bottom of the league with the joint-worst number of goals conceded. He's played well, so he's in with a shout.

It's a shame it's taken a situation of someone not making the team to start the U.K. community discussing about who might, in future. Give us our Jack Butland!

[Maverick]

Ok on phone so will likely write more re at a later point,

One thing that struck me this year was how little noise was made around the putting yourself forward part, admittedly this year after RL intruded I honestly thought I’d just missed the posts, however talking to others at NafC either they all did as well or it just wasn’t put out there in the right places to catch the community

I remember Phil the year before reallly drumming up interest on all manner of aspects including captain vote and putting yourself forward for selection

Shouldn’t need to be just him though

[stick_with_poo_on_the_end]

Some interesting points made here. I have been lucky enough to have played twice for team England back in the day. I can honestly say that they were the best Bloodbowl experiences in my 12+ years of playing tournaments. I’m therefore passionate about the perception, and future, of Team England.

It is clear that there are coaches that think change is needed, but what kind of change? I’m not sure, but I must admit, I do like how the Scots pick the team etc , so there may be ideas that are used/ adapted from that system.

I would be very interested in the thoughts from Team England captains both past and present. They have 1st hand experience of picking the team and communicating with the community etc. Their opinions on what does/doesn’t work well, things that need changing/don’t would be extremely valuable to this discussion.

[landrover]

It is clear that there are coaches that think change is needed, but what kind of change? I’m not sure, but I must admit, I do like how the Scots pick the team etc , so there may be ideas that are used/ adapted from that system.

From what I can gather on the fora, the selection list does appear to be more heavily weighted towards coaches that have already represented England at the Eurobowl.
Which, on a knee-jerk reaction, would indicate a self-perpetuating club.

But! I read in pipey's or purple's post that it isn't a requirement, only a preference, so that's ok.

My pennyworth is that in order to encourage new blood, and to dispel the rumour of an old boy's club, I too would love to see a similar selection technique to the Scottish one. Top three coaches automatically get an invite (subject to RL getting in the way!), and the remaining positions are open to a wide range of criteria.

Maybe top placed England coach in the Golden Gauntlet that year?
Perhaps a wild card on a raffle system (put your name in the hat if you can commit to attending, name drawn around May to give time to prepare/raise funds/practice).
Maybe regional representation? One from each district (sort out some geographical split in England, just make sure Yorkshire doesn't get the geographical weighting that they would no doubt demand!).

[Sandwich]

... Top three coaches automatically get an invite ...

Herein lies one of the problems with that approach - how do you define the "Top 3 coaches".
For the Scottish championship I believe the points are based on tournaments in Scotland plus a small number of other UK ones. England has multiple tournaments most weekends... do you base it off the Golden Gauntlet, in which case I could effectively buy my way into Team England by finishing 10th at every tournament with a stunty team.

My main concern with the current Team England set-up is that for years, the forum contained chats about travel arrangements etc, whereas for the last couple these have all stopped. If I'd been going to these as a Europener, or a potential Eurobowler, I've no idea where these discussions now take place and how I could get such info*


* Disclaimer: I actually do, I could just ask someone, but that doesn't help to repel the appearance of exclusivity.

[Gorgoroth]

I thought I would post some suggestions and thoughts, as a coach that has attended two Eurobowls via the Eur'Open system (which by the way is a fantastic way of getting coaches interested in travelling abroad to play Bloodbowl).

Recently, I have been thinking more and more about how you go about getting on the England team because if I am honest it really is my next goal to represent England at a Eurobowl or World Cup. However It's quite a daunting proposition given the results and quality of the coaches that currently occupy the England positions, I am a strong believer it must be the best of the best of what England have on offer. So bearing in mind I would qualify, given the criteria shown in Pipey's earlier post, my questions would be:

How well do you have to play and for how long in order to challenge for a place?
Are tournament wins or placings taken into consideration?
Is NAF ranking taken into consideration ie if you are top English coach with a particular race for instance?
Any other factors, or am i barking up the wrong tree?

I must admit i do like the Scottish way of picking their coaches but it maybe a bit messy given the vast array of tournaments on offer in England (Golden Gauntlet). The solution maybe to pick a selection of tournaments dotted around the UK and call them the road to Eurobowl or something of that nature and the top three auto qualify, just a suggestion as there may be something like this behind the scenes that I don't know about. I also feel that there should be a place for the NAF champion (if English), previously Sizzler and Stan have won this tournament but have not been on the Eurobowl team, which I find a little strange, but again there maybe a reason for this, that I am not privy to.

Moving on, Eur'Open is a wonderful tournament in itself and I would recommend anyone to attend if they can get a couple of mates together and make a team. My only suggestion here, having attended twice is the lack of English unity and this isn't a dig it's just an observation. I found that the teams we played against tended to have the same shirts as those of the Eurobowl team particularly when it came to French, Italian and Spanish coaches. This had two profound effects, one they felt part of a much larger team and second they were very proud to wear their countries colours. Now I am only putting it forward but could we not organise a similar thing for the English teams travelling, it does not have to be a shirt, it could be a cap or armband, obviously it would come down to cost but just an idea.

Anyway that is my tuppence worth but I felt it important to post something (normally just read posts so please forgive me if I have wittered on)