The Ogre Spike! and NAF tournaments

[BillyDee]

I genuinely don't see how this thread has got any longer than the original post.
I can understand there might have been some initial confusion, and so the need for the original clarification, but to suggest that the NAF are subverting GW's intent is ridiculous.
This is clearly a league only rule that like other rules (e.g. weeping dagger) has no place in a resurrection tournament.

[Wifflebat]

Hello Wifflebat,

I think that if you can read Disposable and convince yourself it works at a resurrection tournament (as some clearly can), you can certainly read your quotation there and see those as 0 k Gnoblars or a clever attempt to change the Disposable skill description to fit the format. While the sanction doc. could never hope to have a rule for every situation that arises, the catch-all attempts to subvert any of these requirements through unforeseen means may result in the refusal of sanction is probably appropriate here. It's certainly above and beyond the standard sort of this is a Warpstone stadium tournament, Skaven and Underworld get +1 FF' racial buffs we usually OK.

Can I spin the question around? What is unpalatable about offering Ogres x k more gold or giving them free inducements (each of which is already common) if you think that appropriate, rather than trying to wrangle some form words that passes muster and stealth tweak a skill description that doesn't apply to the format so it will fly? It seems more elegant to me, and is certainly less of a headache.

I don't really enjoy being the fun police, I doubt anyone does. This might all seem excessively tedious and beardy to some of you ('live and let live, get people get on with it, you busybody!'), but in a greater good way, it is worthwhile. If I didn't think that, I wouldn't still be writing these posts.

I agree entirely that Disposable doesn't work in a tournament setting. And I fully admit that I'm not conversant with all of the NAF tournament requirements, though I understand that altering the prices of players is a strong prohibition, so it's possible that I'm missing out on some essential philosophy of tournament sanctioning.

I'm in the US, where tiered tournaments are not as prevalent as in the UK, and I admit to not liking them all that well. The method you're suggesting is simply tiering Ogres, which I find artificial and, indeed, a little unpalatable. It's definitely less of a headache, obviously--especially for you (and let me be absolutely clear that I don't think you're trying to be a villain here at all. You've correctly identified that tournaments don't have an inducements phase, which could throw everything to hell).

The way I see it, is that the point of Disposable is that players with the skill are essentially "free"--in terms of your team getting extra inducements. I think it's a great balancing tool for Ogres--from game one,* they'll get a boost to their team in the form of inducements. I don't think that finding an analogue to that for tournaments is a stealth tweak--I think it's taking a balancing element that's been added to the Ogre team and translating it in a simple way to the tournament structure.

I agree that we could say that Ogres just get an additional 120K in inducement spending for a tournament, but I see that as a less-elegant solution than giving those extra inducements to match their Disposable players in terms of continuity with the rules we'll be used to playing in our leagues.

Again, largely born out of a lack of affection for tiering tournaments in the first place, and answered with nothing but love and respect for the work you do.

*if this were a skill that somehow progressed or built upon other inducements, it would be different. But it amounts to extra inducements for any game they play with a team at an equal level, which is theoretically what tournaments are.

[Vanguard]

They are rostered inducements, not inducements generated during the inducement phase of a progression game.

That makes no sense mate, there is no mechanism in Blood Bowl to roster inducements (dz2 star player rostering aside). For a chef, bribes, and star players to be used there has to be a pseudo inducement phase. So why is this any different?

Any pseudo-inducement phase would involve taking into account the TVs of both teams and calculating the difference. In a standard NAF tournament this never happens. Instead, there is a cash value (1100k GP for example) that can be spent on players and inducements, in a fashion that is not part of the standard ruleset.

[Vanguard]

So, wait. Are you saying that you would be opposed to a tournament rule that reads something like this:

"Coaches get XXX gold for buying players, rerolls, and inducements. Additionally, if a team includes players with the Disposable skill, that team's coach will receive additional gold equal to the purchase price of those players that may only be spent on Inducements."

It doesn't change the skill; coaches don't at any point use a version of the skill, but it's referenced in the tournament rules pack in a clear way. It's not changing player pricing; it's just setting up a metric for how teams (only Ogres right now, but possibly others in the future) are given additional gold. It might require a tiering adjustment for Ogres in general, but that will all come out in the was once we see how much of a difference it actually makes.

Have to say, this is how I originally expected to see it brought into the Resurrection format (with the tweak I've added to avoid potentially unlimited players).
The intention of Disposable seems to be to reduce the value of Gnoblars/Snots while still requiring some cost to purchase them. If the NAF want to rule that this new skill should have no impact on Resurrection tournaments, then fair enough. I can't see how the above proposed ruling would fall foul of sanctioning though, it's simply another take on how to tier teams and provide differing treasury values.

Phil, your proposal that TOs stick with regular tiering options limits the ways in which Ogres could now be potantially built. For example, 14 Snots and 1100 gold for Star Players and Inducements. If that's the stance the NAF is taking, then that's ok, I guess. Just want to be explicit about it.

[yogi]

Sorry another question this whole thing gave me a tournament idea. if a TO designs a tournament that uses TV not gold can disposable be used? They have a gold cost but not tv. Lots of tournament packs say tv not gold. Snots are TV 0 essential as they are not included in the total amount and they cost 20gold which with a tv based rules set doesn’t mater but it has been acknowledged they cost something. Part 2 to my question Can TO put an inducement phase in? I think this. Could make for an interesting event. Where you have team that has to be tournament legal. 11 player before stars. Then you sit down with what ever race your playing against and you can then induce the rest of your team if needed. Rosters change through out the day etc this would mean No pre rostered stars, bribes, chiefs etc it’s all done at the table pregame.

[Purplegoo]

Yogi’s question one and Vanguard’s point are, I think, answered earlier in the thread. I responded on the specific TV over gold creation question right at the beginning, and I think I’ve commented on the quoted passage originally from Wifflebat’s post above.

On the question about running a resurrection tournament that includes an inducement phase, I guess I would go away and have a think about it, if such a thing was explicitly submitted. Bear in mind though, it is a departure from the norm in that generally, the worst teams get help and the good teams less so. Adding in an inducement phase would basically help Ogres (as yes, this would likely enable Disposable to be properly used) and hinder most other teams that don’t traditionally include a rostered inducement, unless you count some extremely minmaxed tier one powerhouses that could exploit the idea. Even if fine for a bit of variety, I doubt it would have enduring appeal? All that said, I don’t spot an immediate issue (said before actual reflection, if this ever got out of a hypothetical space I’d think further).

Remember also that Specialist is there, if you are desperate to change skill descriptions. That’s the sort of thing we are fine with in that variant.

[yogi]

To be honest it’s not just for ogres one of the interesting elements of sitting down in league play is knowing what race your playing and being able get inducements that might help a weaker team. Skaven for example. One game could play skitter against elves and then glart against dwarfs if tv difference allowed. Obviously something like a 15min window would need to be added to each game to be able to do this on the fly. But I just thought it would be interesting. I’m sure some team would use the full tv others not.

[Purplegoo]

I wonder if you’d just create a race to the bottom where no one wants to give away inducements, so they spend as little as possible? But I don’t know. Progression tournaments are all good fun as a change. You’d maybe see more inducements there?

[yogi]

Yeah not a bad idea. I just always feel bad for the inevitable team that gets destroyed game 1 so they then don’t want to continue

[lunchmoney]

Yogi, you've basically described progression tourneys. I've been to a few and the fear of getting destroyed game 1 is real, yes, but it never stopped anyone taking the more fragile teams.

[sann0638]

Yogi, you've basically described progression tourneys. I've been to a few and the fear of getting destroyed game 1 is real, yes, but it never stopped anyone taking the more fragile teams.

I just have ongoing Fezglitch regret from the one I went to. Wizards FTW.

[bastion01]

sooo much chatter for such a simple thing...
It's encouraging that there's so many of us.

Every tournament I've ever been to is Resurrection style and uses the Xgp for roster building.
These two things make the 'Disposable' trait utterly irrelevant.
Period.

...with regards to Team/Player Progression:
Some seem to think the trait is intended to 'balance' the Ogre team in some way. If you consider the bonus Inducement cash accomplishing this: You're happy all smiles suddenly.
I've not had the pleasure of participating in a "Progression" tourny so I really can't comment there.

I'm personally not a fan of the trait.
It doesn't really improve the team nor add anything substantive to the game overall.
Ogres are the same team as they've always been (without getting into the new Kicking game... that's a whole 'nother matter) except now they get more pre-game inducement cash.
Maybe I'll grow to not care eventually ...who knows.

That snots are only 20k already makes them functionally Disposable and eliminating valid roster slots from TV calculations just seems like a bad way to approach it from within the framework of the game.

....but I must say it's a surprisingly subtle tweak from GW.

[lunchmoney]

Again good luck hosting a naf tourney at a gw store

http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopi ... 63#p814263
Boom, NAF event at GW HQ and they "solve" this debate with one simple paragraph.

Any gold not spent is wasted. You will not be able to choose additional Inducements to make up any difference between your Team Value and your opponents. We strongly advise that small sums leftover be spent on Fan Factor, Assistant Coaches, or Cheerleaders to make your roster a round 1,250,000 value.

[Bakunin]

That ruleset was made before Ogre spike, but the TO know the rules so well that you can raise a zombie player from a stunty player

It comes down to what your point of departure is. Is it gw rules with resurrection house rules on top, or is the point of departure NAF rules (and how it always was).

Disposable is a little clucky, but the point is clear. Ogre's get a big buff and can play with more RR, starplayers or wizard every game if they want to.
If you wanna skate around that, go ahead, but you are on thin ice and you sound shifty, because you are blatantly breaking the spirit of the game and negating game design.
Seems many people on face thinks the same.

New rule, time to do something new.

NAF seem hardlocked to do the above, so the best thing I have come up with is giving ogre's hairyfeet for free every game. Should be about what they would get with disposable.

[gjnoronh]

Doesn't seem you've read the thread.
Disposable explicitly is designed to effect the Inducement phase - which is almost always only a league only thing and not a resurrection TV thing.

You realize if an Inducement phase per tournament round was allowed that in any tiered tournament Tier 1 Teams would be _getting_ inducements against Tier 3 - it's possible Disposable would reduce or reverse the direction of those bonus inducements Tier 1 would get but 120-160 of disregarded Gnoblar TV probably doesn't wouldn't translate into Ogres getting much inducements in a tiered environment. Clearly depends on how aggressive the tiering package is but not unusual to see Tier 3 getting between 40-200 extra TV compared to Tier 1.

If you are a TO and want to give Ogres a bonus you can easily do so by changing tiering (put ogres on a new Tier of their own if you like with 120 extra to spend for example.)