Improving the passing game

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Christy
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Improving the passing game

Post by Christy »

So I have seen in a few places that many people seem to think passing is too risky. I feel like it is fine on elves but hadn't really thought about it on ag3 teams - I just didn't pass with them if I didn't feel under pressure to do so. It does seem a shame though as Amazons, Orcs, Humans, Skaven and Norse all have throwers (I am probably forgetting a few) which largely there for Sure hands if they have it or simply not there a lot of the time. However in spite of all the comments on it it remains one of the areas I have seen the least suggested changes (maybe I just missed them but I always feel like I see so much attention elsewhere). Even on the Human Catcher thread the emphasis was on improving the catcher instead of the rules.

Initial premise: Passing with High/Pro/Wood Elves is fine
Passing with AG3 based teams is under powered - even with the relevant base skills.
So my own thoughts

As opposed to a single concept I figured I would see what others think about the issue. Feel free to argue with me that passing does not need to change or that you have a better suggestion than mine. I mostly want to theorycraft here and I am sure those more experienced can find flaws in my own potential changes but they can be amended with discussion. Maybe they Elven could use some encouragement to launch the ball a bit more.

My own thoughts on how it could be improved:

1: Give +1 to all catch attempts on all Quick/ Short Passes if the target has Catch. No bonus if it was not an accurate pass or the ball was not aimed at the receiver's square. As an alternate give the +1 to the thrower but that would give AG4 Throwers 2+ for Short throws right out of the box. Improving Catch would only give AG4 catchers a bonus if they were in a tackle zone. The issue is that a Norse or Skaven side would need to get Catch to get the improvement but they are meant to be more a running style anyway. I like that it would mean that AG3 guys are really efficient over shorter distances (lower cost but as effective as AG4) but that the true class shows over the long distances - encourages different styles of passing games.

2: The reroll from the Catch skill may be made assuming the receiver is AG4. So no benefit for AG4 Catchers but makes the AG3 ones more reliable. As above the change could be made for the Passing skill instead. Indeed it is an either or here though improving Pass would be a weird boost for Khemri though I don't think it gives them a reliable passing game! It has a clearer effect in the game in that it definitely does not affect AG4 teams. I also like that it can improve some unexpected players, like imagine a Chaos Warrior getting Catch and operating as a tight end style receiver! Certainly not optimal but it gives some incentive for a less than completely serious team to go that way and get some benefit.

3: Probably the most clunky but after a failed pass attempt or intercept (not a failed catch) give the targeted receiver (if an empty square is targeted this can't be used) 3 squares of movement before the turnover after the bouncing ball has been sorted. Dodge rolls to be made as needed. As the ball is in motion and bouncing randomly all pick ups are on a 4+ during this movement. This would allow teams to mitigate some of the danger of passing by marking the ball/ getting the ball and could be explained by a receiver altering their route as soon as they see the pass go astray (or by the thrower's feet). This could be tied to the receiver having the catch skill/having 7+MV/having not moved that turn etc. Another alternative would be to call it a dive on it approach and force each move to be towards the ball if taken.

Aside from the last one, which I just liked the image of, I tried to keep these simple as I feel like that is important. I don't think any would see AG3 passing sides become unbeatable either. Personally I like 2 the best. Easy to word, encourages a style of play and limits some of the abuse by ensuring high AG players can't use it. I am sure I have missed plenty of house rules that deal with this differently.

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Re: Improving the passing game

Post by dode74 »

A suggestion I made a while ago: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35377

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Christy42
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Re: Improving the passing game

Post by Christy42 »

dode74 wrote:A suggestion I made a while ago: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35377

Thank you for that. An interesting suggestion indeed and a good thread to read over.

Slann Catchers would need amendment but that likely was not a consideration at the time. One player can be fixed easy enough if the rules change is worth it anyway. The main worry for me is it would put Skaven up a decent bit. AG4 and ag3 with catch would be identical (except for inaccurate passes). Indeed while it would be handy in a few situations I am not sure I would like catch on an ag4 player at all since it likely adds to the cost of the player with little benefit.

The discussion on cage breaking was also interesting. The idea being if it is too risky to cage you pass instead. The issue here is then teams designed to cage (undead and the like) don't have that out until they roll a few doubles. The idea should be to get teams who should be able to do both (like Humans/Zone) to go out with passing in mind every so often (depending on the coach) instead of as a last resort.

This is why I like improving the passing game more than hitting the cage game.

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Re: Improving the passing game

Post by plasmoid »

My own suggestion - a new modifier for Catching:
+1 uncontested catch (A catch Roll with no negative catching modifiers applied)

Doesn’t help AG4.
Can be countered.

Cheers
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Christy
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Re: Improving the passing game

Post by Christy »

plasmoid wrote:My own suggestion - a new modifier for Catching:
+1 uncontested catch (A catch Roll with no negative catching modifiers applied)

Doesn’t help AG4.
Can be countered.

Cheers
Martin

Nurgle approves of this rule!

I like it, similar +1 on a quick/short pass it encourages a different style of play. In this case multiple receivers or some serious running threats. It also turns blitzers or meandering linemen into strong receivers if left unmarked. This forces the defense into figuring out whether to stop the run, the pass to the catchers streaking down the field while also keeping an eye on what players they are dodging away from. Heck even that Ogre is sitting by ready to catch on a 3+!

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Re: Improving the passing game

Post by JPB »

My (too long) thoughts on passing:

I'm not sure you need to improve skills or numbers at all. There are options like Catch, Diving Catch, Pass, Accurate and Strong Arm. All those options are (basically) +1 on the catch/pass roll (i.e. re-roll, +1 on the roll and +1AG is all the same, roughly). So an AG3 team can improve their catcher to +2 (AG5) and their thrower to +3 (AG6). So the option to build a powerful pass combo is there down the road. (Btw, once you have an AG5 Thrower with Safe Throw and an AG5 Catcher with Nerves of Steel and Leap, there is nothing the defence can do about it, other than hope they roll a 1, or to break their legs in time. The game really needs to rewrite Safe Throw (makes Pass Block literally pointless) and a counter for NoS. However, that's very, very late game. (And some even say that there is no such place as “late game”. But it's true! It's true! I've seen it! :).)
You could improve some AG3 teams coming out of the box (that is the Strong Arm/Diving Catch suggestions for humans, making both Catcher and Thrower basically AG4 during passes) but it seems few people are intrigued by it. However, I think all your three points are very similar to giving the Human Catcher Diving Catch (which allows to reach (3.) and which adds +1 when catching an accurate pass (1. and 2.)). And other teams than Human may not really need help in this field (?).

Teams that specialise on short distances sounds cool, but again, perhaps it's something teams need to build. In this regard one could also mention teams with a Dump-off, Nerves of Steel and Catch theme, which had always a weird fascination.

However, I think the problems of passing are more fundamental.

First, passing is a fast score. Which is not very attractive in a stalling environment. That means originally the game was supposed to be: I attack, you attack, you attack, I attack, and a fun back and forth. However, when I score in turn 2 with a pass, then you get the ball for 6 turns, and then you get the ball again. And if you drag that second possession to turn 8 you win 2-1. In such an environment the option to score fast is more situational, like turning over the ball late in the half and being forced to move it downfield quickly (run, pass, run, hand-off). But as a standard offence weapon, pass has almost no place in how the game plays out. (Unless you are really confident you can turn the ball over on defence, and recover it. Which some teams are good at (AG4 mostly)).

Second, if a pass fails it's a lost possession (and sacrificing possession for position doesn't work in BB). Besides, coaches have become amazing at protecting the ball. Cage plays, screens and controlling the offence are so vastly advanced and superior to passing the ball, that even AG4 teams don't do it. A good coach has so much more control over the game, by caging, and advancing slowly, than he could ever have during a pass play (unless you cage thrower and receiver?) and consequently passes only occur when breaking out of the cage and running the ball in (quick pass, hand-offs on a 2+ etc.).

So you would need to deal with two issues: passing having a risk of turning the ball over, especially compared to a very controlled and save cage play, and, second, the disadvantage that even scoring means to turn over the ball (stalling). (I think this is still true. Some may say that AG4 teams should score quickly, to get out of the mud, but I think they are even more in it on defence then they are on offence, so...)

I think the pass/catch rules are actually fine as they are, there is just no incentive to use it, or to build players into it (but not because passing sucks. An AG3 Thrower with pass, and an AG3 Catcher with catch (or team re-roll) connect on a quick pass 79% of all times. That's roughly a 2+ on a D6, which is not shabby at all). In fact, if coaches need to go quick, they use passes, and in those scenarios the rules itself seem fine. I think one needs to look at the fundamentals (as pointed out: control and stalling) as the issue, but that's when stuff gets real. And personally, I have no good idea whatsoever, concerning those issues.

And one reason, why no one really discusses this, (me thinks) is that BB is an utterly broken game but it works very well. As, for example, the entire passing mechanism is out of the window, but the game continues to be strategically exciting and fun. It's a bit like Brood War in that regard. Completely broken and somehow balanced because of it. Very difficult to do anything about it really (i.e. they don't touch Brood War either). At least as far as I'm capable of understanding it. :wink:

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iaphyr
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Re: Improving the passing game

Post by iaphyr »

The way I see it, at it's core the difference between Ag4 & 3 is similar to the difference between having the block skill or not.

The problem with skills as they are however is that the block works nearly every time (ie unless opponent has wrestle, and even then it's not a turnover) no matter if you are hitting / being hit, during blitzes, equal / unequal strengths etc.

Whereas there is no equivelant 'handle ball on a 2+' skill, only skills that provide that during specific stages (pickup, throw, catch, enemy TZ's etc). Agility 4 already does this obviously, but the difficulty in 'skilling up' ball handling Ag3 players to the same effectiveness isn't equal as general skills are auto-available vs the 1/18 chance of +AG (and higher TV bloat)

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Re: Improving the passing game

Post by Christy42 »

Indeed you can build a passing side but it will have a bigger TV bloat from all the skills required on a few individuals. Block, dodge and guard are incredibly powerful for the TV given with them. Think about the number of blocks vs the number of passes. Even ball handling moments total!

Similarly this is largely theory crafting and anyways I hope they won't change any rules without serious testing (though it would be in keeping with a blood bowl theme to take a random fans opinion on the rules and ram it in a match). In fact I feel people should be encouraged to go a bit mad suggesting rules in places like these. Not all need to be tested before being chucked out but they may find a way.

You are right that time management is too important. It is in every sport. Rugby league has limited possessions. Union has the ball up for grabs in rucks and the NFL has downs to encourage forward progress. So that will still be an issue. It is easy to protect the ball for 6 turns in a cage. Less sonic you have receivers down field and plan on chucking the ball to them even if you delay the pass.

This is one I don't have an answer for. I would love to see more teams, including humans go out with a passing game as plan A (they may need to adjust vs wood elves or the like but that is fine) and not be hamstrung vs a running game. Certainly not all teams should be equally good at it.

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Re: Improving the passing game

Post by JPB »

iaphyr wrote:The way I see it, at it's core the difference between Ag4 & 3 is similar to the difference between having the block skill or not. The problem with skills as they are however is that the block works nearly every time (ie unless opponent has wrestle, and even then it's not a turnover) no matter if you are hitting / being hit, during blitzes, equal / unequal strengths etc. Whereas there is no equivelant 'handle ball on a 2+' skill, only skills that provide that during specific stages (pickup, throw, catch, enemy TZ's etc). Agility 4 already does this obviously, but the difficulty in 'skilling up' ball handling Ag3 players to the same effectiveness isn't equal as general skills are auto-available vs the 1/18 chance of +AG (and higher TV bloat)
I think the difference between AG3 and AG4 is a design one and working. That means AG4 is universally good. While AG3 players have to become good in specific areas (i.e. specialize by picking pass (thrower), catch (catcher), dodge etc.). I don't think one should expect that AG3 can or should become as universally good as AG4. (just as ST3 doesn't simply become ST4). That's not how it's designed or supposed to work.

And it shouldn't be overlooked that an AG3 player with Catch, has a (slightly) higher success rate than a plain AG4 player, at least when catching.
Which is a very good design actually (i.e. an AG3 specialist beats an AG4 scrub at least within his/er field of expertise).

A more interesting difference is the one between bash (2D blocks) and flash (1D6). As the option to throw a 2D block is actually already a re-roll that can be re-rolled again. While flash (and their 1D6) can re-roll only once, making bash considerably more save than flash. Possibly a reason why bash is easier to play.

Also, Block does work all the time, but to get better you also need to add some of the following skills: Tackle, Frenzy, Pro, Juggernaut, Mighty Blow, Piling On, Grab etc.
Just as the AG players have to. I mean neither side has this magic skill that makes a player perfect in one go.
But of cause Block and Dodge are very good skills, and much better than other skill picks (like probably many flash skills like catch or pass). I would even say that any team that does not start with Block, is by default a low tier team (at least initially).
And similarly, AG4 is much better equipped to play flash than AG3. But that's how it's supposed to be (different teams, different styles).
Christy42 wrote:Similarly this is largely theory crafting and anyways I hope they won't change any rules without serious testing (though it would be in keeping with a blood bowl theme to take a random fans opinion on the rules and ram it in a match). In fact I feel people should be encouraged to go a bit mad suggesting rules in places like these. Not all need to be tested before being chucked out but they may find a way.
I doubt anything ever discussed here will become official. :)
When was the last time you read something on the internet and said “Yep, that's my opinion from now on.” That's not human. :wink:

The only thing I wanted to point out was that the pass rules may actually fail because of the scenario (control, stalling), and I think it's important to realize that in a different environment, the current pass rules could even become overpowered. The ability to score fast, with comparatively good chances (like a 2+ roll) is actually very powerful. And difficult to stop.

Different environments could be:

The scoring team keeps possession. Which could (at least) remove the need to play slow. In fact elves may enjoy to set up over and over again.

Or something I contemplated once but abandoned: Scoring a touchdown ends the half. And I called it the 4 quarters solution. However it has a lot of issues.

Or give the offence less time. Then they have to play more aggressive, risky and go for passes more.

How was that for going a bit mad?
I bet some veterans reading this are already half-way there. :D

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Re: Improving the passing game

Post by Christy42 »

Indeed. Those are definitely better solutions to tone down the run game (I was trying to think of a way to remove tackle zones to break cages but they all came down to dwarves lose). There was also one with a special block action that ignores assists, can't knock down an opponent but can knock the ball free which I think would be great for very specific match ups but terrible overall.

Indeed an ag4 player should have an edge over ag3. But even with the suggestions AG 4 would be better at dodging/picking up the ball etc and so could do a lot more flash than an ag3 team with favourable pass rules. Indeed the play style difference was something I want as well with ag4 players specialists being at least as good as ag3 in all flash situations and better in some (either forcing them to get free or short passes for ag3 to get parity etc.)

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Re: Improving the passing game

Post by dode74 »

I quite like the idea of somehow getting the fans involved if the ball doesn't advance. It would limit the "cage at the endzone" strategy and reward stalling the cage. Completely off the top of my head, a toned-down rock (max of stunned) to the offensive team if a 1 is rolled when the ball fails to advance 2 squares in a turn (or something along those lines), perhaps.

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Re: Improving the passing game

Post by Christy42 »

dode74 wrote:I quite like the idea of somehow getting the fans involved if the ball doesn't advance. It would limit the "cage at the endzone" strategy and reward stalling the cage. Completely off the top of my head, a toned-down rock (max of stunned) to the offensive team if a 1 is rolled when the ball fails to advance 2 squares in a turn (or something along those lines), perhaps.

That could be interesting. Might force them to move a cage quicker than they prefer in midfield as well. Would make a screen really effective against a cage. Course they will probably risk it a bit more there but still.

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Re: Improving the passing game

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dode74 wrote:I quite like the idea of somehow getting the fans involved if the ball doesn't advance. It would limit the "cage at the endzone" strategy and reward stalling the cage. Completely off the top of my head, a toned-down rock (max of stunned) to the offensive team if a 1 is rolled when the ball fails to advance 2 squares in a turn (or something along those lines), perhaps.
Is that a Chaos League reference? :). That was a fun game. And imo a much better version of “Blood Bowl” than their current game. There were so many hilarious situations, jokes and grotesque moments, that it earned them a well deserved BB IP. (Beehive-spell having players run around in confusion or dwarves placing dynamite on stunned players :lol:).
And the exploding barrels that came flying in when standing around with the ball too much. However, if I remember correctly one could just take it at one point, or move a little once in a while (or should that be jiggle?).
However, it is very difficult to write rules for “advance” that are not unfair (i.e. not every slow cage play is automatically stalling, sometimes they do get legitimately stuck) or exploitable (can I walk back and forth? :)). I think this is a fun rule (fan interaction), but difficult as a mechanic, until you can define terms like “advance” and „stalling“ without issues. (I tried it once and couldn't come up with anything good.)

The „best“ version was a “Use it” rule, which is somewhat similar. “When a player can score without rolling a die, at the start of the turn, the team has to do so.” This won't kill stalling but force stalling teams to do so out of range of the end-zone, and if they finally want to score, they would have to roll at least one die (i.e. it adds a bit of risk to it. And even more if the opponent defends it). However, this is more the last idea I had.

A more promising approach towards stalling was based on the realization that the halves are too long. I believe originally a game was supposed to be: I attack for 4 turns, then you for 4 turns, etc. (and/or some fun back and forth mixture of that). Stalling breaks that by trying to drag their 4 turn attack over 8 turns, to deny the opposition a drive and to take control of the game. A counter to stalling should then lie in either shortening the halves, or making it impossible for the offence to waste the “offence time” of their opponent.
And this needs to be done without messing up the game length, the overall flow, tactics and mechanics of BB and it would need to keep the balance within the wide array of teams (slow Dwarves and fast Elves). (uff)

Breaking the game into 4 quarters was one idea. And after going back into my dribble (aka notes) it occurred to me that another solution could be: “only the offence moves their turn marker” (i.e. each team has a set number of turns (downs?), they only use up when actually on offence). But that has the issue when neither side is on offence (?).

However, it should also be noted that preventing stalling will remove the need to play slow but that will probably not result into more passes. Which probably still requires some form of time pressure. Something that gets coaches to chose the risky, but fast pass over the more save and controlled slow run. (like at the end of a half with only two turns remaining).
However, I'm not comfortable thinking that artificial pressure would be good for the game.

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Re: Improving the passing game

Post by Sandwich »

What really killed off passing was probably the simplification of 2nd edition to 3rd edition, when everything suddenly came under one Agility stat.
2nd edition had Throwing skill (TS) for throwing, and Cool (CL) for catching.
If you wanted to "fix" the passing game, adding this back would allow players to be better at passing/catching as necessary, without giving them an unwanted boost for dodging. And also vice-versa, you could up the agility of a halfling or goblin without suddenly giving them an AG4 passing game.
IIRC picking up the ball was an auto-success in 2nd edition so I don't know that would be work now, or if you'd use the CL skill.

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Re: Improving the passing game

Post by fidius »

JPB wrote:However, I'm not comfortable thinking that artificial pressure would be good for the game.
I like the idea quite a bit. BB's main natural flaw is that games frequently reach a point of frustration/futility. Stalling is one of the sources of this, and yet it is fundamental to any winning coach's strategy. Taking the effect down a peg would improve the game imo. "Rock thrown if you don't score when you can" sounds like a nice solution. Its corrolary would be an "Ole" rule for defenders -- moving out of the way for an opponent to score earns a Rock.
Sandwich wrote:2nd edition had Throwing skill (TS) for throwing, and Cool (CL) for catching.
If you wanted to "fix" the passing game, adding this back would allow players to be better at passing/catching as necessary, without giving them an unwanted boost for dodging. And also vice-versa, you could up the agility of a halfling or goblin without suddenly giving them an AG4 passing game.
I'm not familiar with the old rules. But the more natural break would be between Balling and Dodging. One way to get part-way there is to introduce 4 new racial E skills:
Adept / Nimble / Ham-Handed / Heavyset
for +1 Balling / +1 Dodging / -1 Balling / -1 Dodging respectively.
Heavyset for Dwarves, Adept for AG3 Catchers, Nimble for Goblins/Halflings, etc.

Another idea is to permit Throwing on the Strength stat.

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