Str 3 Human Catcher?

[garion]

the only problem with reducing all their players costs is that humans are imo a top tier starter race.

Well, "top tier" after Undead, Wood Elves, Dwarves, Amazons, Skaven, Orcs... just to name some teams out the top of my mind.

I agree Undead is typically a hard match up but I would say they are an elite team (above top tier) at a low TV and in tournaments, short leagues. However i will happily play against any of those other races and believe I have an equal chance or a better than equal chance at winning than my opponent. As a big fan of Skaven, a team I have played alot; the two teams I hate facing more than any other are actually Humans and Norse. Similar story with Wood elves as well which I have played with a huge amount (though don't like them that much).

Not going to get into amazons, they are just a terribly designed team that are far too good against everyone except Dwarves and Chaos Dwarves at a low TV, and mind numbingly dull as well.

Dwarves, against I find humans more than a match for them at first, you just need to use your superior Ma and yuo can run rings round them. Later on this becomes a lot harder when Dwarves have MBPO en masse and Guard on every player.

Finally Orcs, I think Humans are a great match for them at first. The problem comes when those teams reach higher Tvs and the Orcs have spammed Guard and Mighty Blow all round their team. Humans certainly don't need a big boost early on in their life. They need something that lets them keep performing well when their players start dropping like flies which always happens at somepoint. This is why I like the idea of good cheap stars, something no team currently has except for Skaven (why they do god only knows?) and this would go someway in making them more competative in long leagues or perpetual leagues.

edit: back to the original question, no to St3 catchers, that would give humans 8 blitzers. If you just want a simple boost to human catchers give them Av8. that isn't so drastic and makes them function in the same way but keeps them around a little better.

But in a blue-sky world, we should actually make Human Catchers ST3 when being blocked only.

QFT

[Chris]

I don't like the rely on stars arguement.

Why?

1) Stars are fixed. There is no development. Play humans - even more cooky cutter than before because as you progress you will heavily rely on stars.

2) It drives odd behaviours. Look at halflings, there you actively try to keep your tv as low as possible to maximise on stars and other inducements.

3) It is limited to 2 players. Your game plan will hinge around 2 loner stars. Most teams at high tvs will have developed assassin players, whether they are foulers or po/mb(+claw). Guess who they will be hunting.

Ultimately the only fix is something that gives the team better long term potential. That is most easily in blood bowl high stats for higher costs but there are other options to (cost re-jiggings, skills, etc).

[mattski]

But in a blue-sky world, we should actually make Human Catchers ST3 when being blocked only.

Doing something like this would change the game for the better if it was extended to loads of player activities. Why shouldn't a player be better at picking up the ball than dodging? It would allow so much more subtlety and ask more questions of team builds and roster management for the better.

Ah well, it would seem that the chance of doing something like this has long gone.

[garion]

I don't like the rely on stars arguement.

Why?

1) Stars are fixed. There is no development. Play humans - even more cooky cutter than before because as you progress you will heavily rely on stars.

2) It drives odd behaviours. Look at halflings, there you actively try to keep your tv as low as possible to maximise on stars and other inducements.

3) It is limited to 2 players. Your game plan will hinge around 2 loner stars. Most teams at high tvs will have developed assassin players, whether they are foulers or po/mb(+claw). Guess who they will be hunting.

Ultimately the only fix is something that gives the team better long term potential. That is most easily in blood bowl high stats for higher costs but there are other options to (cost re-jiggings, skills, etc).

No no, I'm not syaing make it all about the stars like halflings have to play these days. but by giving them useful stars for the correct cost or closer than 55% more expensive than they should be would be a start. As said I have always found winning with humans to be possible and I still think they are a top tier side at most Tvs in terms of one off games, my problem with them is their bounce backability.

Elves will eventually have a game where they lose big numbers but they also have the ability to to bounce back to greatness quickly. Humans also have this problem, one game they will inevitably lose a lot of players, but they can't bounce back like elves can, and often their team ends up getting smashed to bits even more in the following games as well. With a cheaper Zug (as he already should be according to the official pricing guide) and a nice catcher like Hoshi Komi the team could re-build more effectively and quickly, and yes I take your point that those players would be big targets, but that would be fine with me as it would allow your actually team players to gain SPP without getting killed all the time - because so much focus would be on killing those stars.

[burgun824]

back to the original question, no to St3 catchers, that would give humans 8 blitzers. If you just want a simple boost to human catchers give them Av8. that isn't so drastic and makes them function in the same way but keeps them around a little better.

And here we go running in circles again.

All I've got left to say is that I don't buy the whole argument on game play being effected and this team being more powerful than that team and it would cause this, that, and the other to happen, blah, blah, blah. It's just pure common sense to me that a human (and wood elf) catcher(s) stat should be ST3. And if that means that the human team has 8 blitzers and gives them an edge then I guess that's just the way it was meant to be.

I'm not trying to be nasty. That's just my opinion and I know it stinks just as bad as everyone else's.

[daloonieshaman]

Well if str 3 is hell bent take away G and make it a double choice

8337 A {gsp} Catch, Dodge
7338 A {gsp} Catch

now I have cut his feet out from under him
The whole str 3 arguement seems far to much like "Lets make the catcher a ghoul"

When altering a player you must look at the entire dynamic of the team and how it balances in the league. The reason the teams are set the way they are is to make them a little different from each other so we are not playing the same team.

[MKL]

the only problem with reducing all their players costs is that humans are imo a top tier starter race.

Well, "top tier" after Undead, Wood Elves, Dwarves, Amazons, Skaven, Orcs... just to name some teams out the top of my mind.

I agree Undead is typically a hard match up but I would say they are an elite team (above top tier) at a low TV and in tournaments, short leagues.

Yes, prolly Undead are "over the top"
But we were talking about "top tier starter race", so here they are. Like Amazons and Dwarves and W-Elves, etc...
There are a lot of awesome teams: Humans are not

I agree Humans are good as starting team, mediocre as a developed one.

edit: back to the original question, no to St3 catchers, that would give humans 8 blitzers. If you just want a simple boost to human catchers give them Av8. that isn't so drastic and makes them function in the same way but keeps them around a little better.

I understand your reasoning. But the Catchers of High and Pro-Elves are mostly developed as blitzers/ball-hunters, etc, while the Blitzers take a more defensive path. And nobody ever complained about it.

[garion]

edit: back to the original question, no to St3 catchers, that would give humans 8 blitzers. If you just want a simple boost to human catchers give them Av8. that isn't so drastic and makes them function in the same way but keeps them around a little better.

I understand your reasoning. But the Catchers of High and Pro-Elves are mostly developed as blitzers/ball-hunters, etc, while the Blitzers take a more defensive path. And nobody ever complained about it.

Yeah i get your point I just don't like St3 catchers on humans, Ma8 is awesome, two turn touchdown are pretty easy because of it. I just think St 3 gives to a pretty formidable cage for running rings round people. If you go St3, I think a Ma drop would be needed then your catchers have the same St as Blitzers.

But most of all I love playing humans as they are, they are a challange and a fun one at that. They are capable of winning most match ups at most TVs it is just longevity where they really suffer and that is because of their average to low Av all over.

this is why I think some nice benefits from inducements, namely star players is the way forward, in LRB4 this was certinaly one of their BIG advantages. They had the best selection of star players out of any teams and they were all reasonably cheap considering how amazing some of them were.

[burgun824]

When altering a player you must look at the entire dynamic of the team and how it balances in the league. The reason the teams are set the way they are is to make them a little different from each other so we are not playing the same team.

There's that "ST2 catchers somehow improve the game play" argument again.

I really want to understand. If someone could please tell me (because I'm obviously too stupid to get it) how a ST2 human/wood elf catcher make the game that much more balanced and better overall?

Every other player in the game that is built at the same relative size as them (except the Gutter Runner) is ST3. INCLUDING ALL THE CHICKS. Hell, Zara is ST4, which also baffles me (BTW - has anyone ever thought what she would look like with her pads off? It puts me somewhere between a fantasy and a nightmare.) I can live with the Gutter Runner because it can be justified. I can live with Zara because she's a Star Player and I understand the point (although I think her model should be more respresentative of someone a lot more scary). But a basic catcher should be ST3, no questions asked, and it's off the table to suggest lowering it as part of game balance. Go mess with a different stat.

And just to be a further pain in the arse ( ) I disagree with eliminating G access as a compromise. It seems that you want to pigeon hole a catcher into being specifically a catcher. I might be pursuaded to buy off on this concept for other races but not humans. they are the jack-of-all-trades team and everyone of their players (less the Ogre) needs to have G access in order to open up the possibilities for development. A human catcher can't be looked at as specifically a catcher. He needs to fill other rolls too. Example: ball striker. A ball striker needs strip ball to be effective. You need G access to obtain Strip Ball.

[Steam Ball]

I understand your reasoning. But the Catchers of High and Pro-Elves are mostly developed as blitzers/ball-hunters, etc, while the Blitzers take a more defensive path. And nobody ever complained about it.

Hehehe, more wood to the fire of removing G from human(/all) catchers. Or as proposed weeks ago, reorganize skills to create a new Combat section (all the fight skills from General) and shift some others around. No more catchers doing the blitzer job.

[Smurf]

I understand your reasoning. But the Catchers of High and Pro-Elves are mostly developed as blitzers/ball-hunters, etc, while the Blitzers take a more defensive path. And nobody ever complained about it.

Hehehe, more wood to the fire of removing G from human(/all) catchers. Or as proposed weeks ago, reorganize skills to create a new Combat section (all the fight skills from General) and shift some others around. No more catchers doing the blitzer job.

Those Elves have to at least skill up on Dodge and Block... making them a good 'blitzer' by 16pts.

If the human catcher had ST3 he'd be up and running by 6pts. Lots more to add to it's ability.

What about using the Catchers for what they are! Ball movers.

[Steam Ball]

A human catcher can't be looked at as specifically a catcher. He needs to fill other rolls too. Example: ball striker. A ball striker needs strip ball to be effective. You need G access to obtain Strip Ball.

Give it Strip Ball as base. And Sure Hands too. With A-GSP skill access and 8337.

It would start as good ball handler, but need luck to became a blitzer. The natural progression would be skills to move the ball or recover it, at greater distances, stay up more time or being a pest neutralizing other carriers. Yeah, I said this some days ago.

[daloonieshaman]

A human catcher can't be looked at as specifically a catcher. He needs to fill other rolls too. Example: ball striker. A ball striker needs strip ball to be effective. You need G access to obtain Strip Ball.

Give it Strip Ball as base. And Sure Hands too. With A-GSP skill access and 8337.

It would start as good ball handler, but need luck to became a blitzer. The natural progression would be skills to move the ball or recover it, at greater distances, stay up more time or being a pest neutralizing other carriers. Yeah, I said this some days ago.

The whole point is catchers are not blitzers and should not be easy blitzers if you just add water. The Human team already has 4 Blitzers, you want 8 blitzers make it easy on yourself and play Zons
next you would want a goblin ball and chain to have a MV6

[Steam Ball]

The whole point is catchers are not blitzers and should not be easy blitzers if you just add water. The Human team already has 4 Blitzers, you want 8 blitzers make it easy on yourself and play Zons

Right, so get rid of G to avoid Block (or Wrestle or Tackle). Just provide the couple of usefull ball handle skills from G as start, instead of making them hard to get later because they are in the same group than Block.

So, sorry, was that a critic to the G removal idea or a support vote?

[burgun824]

The whole point is catchers are not blitzers and should not be easy blitzers if you just add water.

I don't recall ever asking for this. Blitzers generally don't have AV7 and 'A' access. As I've stated before I don't buy this argument at all. And even if you are right, who cares if humans have "8 blitzers." At least it would get them out of the dregs of the second tier.

next you would want a goblin ball and chain to have a MV6

Now you're just being silly. I really don't think it's that absurd to add 1 point of ST to two players that should rightfully be considers ST3 players anyway.