The Vanara, the Monkey Team from Ind (reboot)

[legowarrior]

The Vanara are powerful monkey people from the Jungles of Ind, born out of the mutation effects of the powers of chaos. With the lack of uniformity that comes along with the ruinous powers of chaos, the Vanara are divided into the small runners, stunty and cowardly and the larger Vanara that make up the majority of the team. They retain the swift agility, of their ancestry, allowing them to get back off the ground with ease, as well as they powerful prehensile tail, allowing them to trip other players. These gives them a number of advantages when playing the game of blood bowl, a recent development for the Vanara. As a mutated group, similar to minotaurs and beastmen, the changes haven't stopped, and the Monkey People on occasion continue to further mutate, growing extra arms or heads, or growing longer legs.
Along with the regular players, the Vanara have trained the power Orangutuar, large powerful simians, with large hands, and the ability to make mighty blows.
In the end, the Vanara make a team that can stop Agility teams with there Prehensile Tail, and are able to quickly get back up when knocked down by bashy teams using Jump Up. There runners can be used to get through the lines of the other team, and catch the ball, or if you are using Right Stuff, can be thrown across the field by the Orangutaur (without the fear of being eaten).
As to the use of mutation, the in game reason is that they are creatures of chaos (despite not being especially aggressive or being chaos worshipers). For me, I just wanted to create a non-evil, non-bashy team that could use mutations. It makes a fun change of pace.




Version A

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0-16  Vanara Linesmen   60000   6   3   3   7   Prehensile Tail, Jump Up  G/SPM
0-4   Vanara Runner     60000   6   2   3   7   Dodge, Stunty, Jump Up, Right Stuff  A/GSPM
0-2   Vanara Thrower    70000   6   3   3   7   Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, Pass   GP/SM
0-4   Vanara Blitzer    80000   6   3   3   7   Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, Wrestle   GAS/PM
0-1   Orangutaur        130000  5   5   3   8   Loner, Bone Head, Big Hand, Thick Skull, Throw Team Mate, Mighty Blow, S/GAPM

Version B

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0-16  Vanara Linesmen   50000   6   3   3   7   Prehensile Tail, Jump Up  G/SPM
0-4   Vanara Runner     60000   7   2   3   7   Dodge, Stunty, Jump Up  A/GSPM
0-2   Vanara Thrower    70000   6   3   3   7   Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, Pass   GP/SM
0-4   Vanara Blitzer    80000   7   3   3   7   Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, Wrestle   GAS/PM
0-1   Orangutaur        130000  5   5   3   8   Loner, Bone Head, Big Hand, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow  S/GAPM

Version C (as suggested by nick_nameless)

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0-16  Vanara Linesmen   60,000   6   3   3   8   Prehensile Tail, Jump Up  G/ASP
0-4   Vanara Runner     60,000   7   2   3   7   Dodge, Stunty, Jump Up  A/GSP
0-2   Vanara Thrower    70,000   6   3   3   7   Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, Pass   GP/AS
0-2   Vanara Blitzer    100,000   7   3   3   7   Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, Wrestle   GAS/P
0-1   Orangutaur        140,000  5   5   2   8   Loner, Bone Head, Big Hand, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow  S/GAP

So, you think that the Vanara should more like this? Isn't that a little overpowered? Also, Throwing Monkeys seems like a lot of fun.
Please consider which Version you prefer when commenting on the Vanara, and why. I can't decide between the two at this time. What I know is that I like the idea of throwing monkeys around.

[Joemanji]

This is actually a pretty cool list. Nice.

Linemen should probably be 50K though. PT and JU is about equivalent to Block on a Norse lineman IMO, even though it's two skills to one. Similarly Dodge on an Amazon linewoman. Runner is a Goblin with JU, so again not worth 60K at all. Compare to a Skink ... MA8 is way better.

Very slow though, I think maybe MA7 on the Runner and Blitzer would help ... that is traditional for those positions on all other teams. Same price for reasons above.

I might remove the TTM option. It seems a bit cheap and perhaps isn't that in line with the monkey theme.

I can't imagine the Orangutaur with much armour, so maybe AV8? A big guy needs MB and Thick Skull too. An AG3 big guy is a nice touch though.

I'd play with or against this (or something like it).

[nick_nameless]

Why would the Orangataur get General access? Big guys Generally don't

Is there a fluffy reason for the team to get mutation access, or is it just there because it's something you want to play with?

The linemen: At 60K if you went 6 3 3 8 Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, they are similarly costed to a Slann Lineman with similar skills and the same stat line.


The rest of it works for me

[legowarrior]

I had a detailed explanation put in, but I accidentally deleted it when I edited to stat line.
Nick Nameless, which version were you referring to anyway?

[nick_nameless]

I had a detailed explanation put in, but I accidentally deleted it when I edited to stat line.
Nick Nameless, which version were you referring to anyway?

Actually....in looking closer I have issue with some of the other skill access for the pieces. Agility access for the linemen? Don't like it. The blitzer looks to be under costed, especially with GAS access. Should be 100K. Agility access for the thrower?

Too much of the "Good Stuff".

Fair I think is:

Code: Select all

0-16  Vanara Linesmen   60,000   6   3   3   8   Prehensile Tail, Jump Up  G/ASP
0-4   Vanara Runner     60,000   7   2   3   7   Dodge, Stunty, Jump Up  A/GSP
0-2   Vanara Thrower    70,000   6   3   3   7   Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, Pass   GP/AS
0-2   Vanara Blitzer    100,000   7   3   3   7   Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, Wrestle   GAS/P
0-1   Orangutaur        140,000  5   5   2   8   Loner, Bone Head, Big Hand, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow  S/GAP

Thoughts as to why:
Agility Access: Overall, there is too much agility access on your build. This is just my opinion, but it seems like the developmental path is too easy the way you built it.
Mutation access: I don't see a reason that ape-men should have mutation access. The prehensile tail is fine, it's kind of like Very Long Legs with Slann.
Linemen - See comment RE: Slann linemen (At 60K if you went 6 3 3 8 Prehensile Tail, Jump Up, they are similarly costed to a Slann Lineman with similar skills and the same stat line.)
The Runner - I struggle with that, but I think it's fair considering it's a stunty player and has Agility access only. Versus a skink, you are getting one less move but one skill.
The Blitzer - Somewhere between an Amazon blitzer and a Slann blitzer, so I dropped the cost right between. It still might be too cheap considering you are one skill away from a jump-up wrodger.
Orangataur - Ag 3 on a starting big guy is broken. Again, it's just my opinion, but I would put it about here OR if you want the AG 3 then the player needs to be 160K anyways.

EDIT: One last thought....I keep looking at the team and thinking that there are too many poisionals. Maybe only 2 blitzers should be allowed. I changed it to reflect that.

Second Edit: What were you thinking for reroll cost? I was thinking 50K

That allows you to start with: 4 Line Monkies, 4 Catcher Monkies, 1 Thrower Monkey, 2 Blitzer Monkies, 1 Orangutaur, 2 RR for 990K I still wonder if that's over powered, but I'd have to see it play.

[legowarrior]

So your thinking closer to Version A, but without the throw team mates.
People don't think flinging Monkeys is a cool feature. I guess we shouldn't tread on the toes of the Halflings.

As to the price, keep in mind that the Slann Linesmen have 8 Armor Value, compared to the 7 armor value of the Vanara, so that along should count for a price decrease. Prehensile Tail and Jump Up don't work perfectly together. Prehensile Tail only works when you are standing up, and Jump Up works when you have fallen down, so there isn't a natural fit. You either get wrestle, and expect the Monkey to be on the ground, or take block, and not benefit fully from Jump Up, but you can use Prehensile tail. I realize that it sounds like I am arguing against the team, but what I mean to say is that being slightly under cost with the Vanara is not a bad thing, considering the abilities.

I can get behind the Vanara having less then 10 positionals, but I remember, much like Goblins are to Orcs, Vanara Runners should barely be considered positionals. I was tempted to go the Undead Route, with 0-16 Linesmen, and 0-16 Runners (I need a better name than runner, any suggestions?). That was why I went with 4 Blitzers, since on offense you would have 4 Runners, 2 Throwers, 4 Blitzers and the Orangutaur, and on defense, you might switch out 2 or more of the runners for Linesmen.

I agree with you on the Agility, that is too much. I will definitely take that out.
Too much Agility for the team but I still feel that Mutation on doubles is just fun! Remember, these are mutated Monkeys... (I think). Warp stone is in the area, and so you might get a 3 armed, 2 headed Vanara Runner.

Anyway, I appreciate the comments, and nothing is set in stone so changes will continue.

[nick_nameless]

So your thinking closer to Version A, but without the throw team mates.
People don't think flinging Monkeys is a cool feature. I guess we shouldn't tread on the toes of the Halflings.

As to the price, keep in mind that the Slann Linesmen have 8 Armor Value, compared to the 7 armor value of the Vanara, so that along should count for a price decrease. Prehensile Tail and Jump Up don't work perfectly together. Prehensile Tail only works when you are standing up, and Jump Up works when you have fallen down, so there isn't a natural fit. You either get wrestle, and expect the Monkey to be on the ground, or take block, and not benefit fully from Jump Up, but you can use Prehensile tail. I realize that it sounds like I am arguing against the team, but what I mean to say is that being slightly under cost with the Vanara is not a bad thing, considering the abilities.

I can get behind the Vanara having less then 10 positionals, but I remember, much like Goblins are to Orcs, Vanara Runners should barely be considered positionals. I was tempted to go the Undead Route, with 0-16 Linesmen, and 0-16 Runners (I need a better name than runner, any suggestions?). That was why I went with 4 Blitzers, since on offense you would have 4 Runners, 2 Throwers, 4 Blitzers and the Orangutaur, and on defense, you might switch out 2 or more of the runners for Linesmen.

I agree with you on the Agility, that is too much. I will definitely take that out.
Too much Agility for the team but I still feel that Mutation on doubles is just fun! Remember, these are mutated Monkeys... (I think). Warp stone is in the area, and so you might get a 3 armed, 2 headed Vanara Runner.

Anyway, I appreciate the comments, and nothing is set in stone so changes will continue.

I think Flinging monkies is okay...but if you up the AG and/or TTM plus add Right Stuff on the catcher, what does that do to the price? It has to go up.

I bumped the line monkies up to AV 8 in my post. They probably should stay at AV7 and still be 60K, though. I was trying to give a little. Slann linemen have a better statline, but let's face it....Leap and VLL on those linemen does not go very far. It's way to likely to cause a turnover to be relied upon, and there's always someone else you need to leap with. Prehensile Tail and jump up may not wor as well together, but they are phenomenal skills. Jump up everywhere? I don't think you have really conceptualized how broken that is . That's like having every piece on your team that's gotten knocked down being able to blitz on a 2+. Knocking foes down is one of the key defensive concepts in the game. This team wrecks that. Absolutely Wrecks it.

I'll see if someone in my group wants to playtest, but I am thinking that it will get messy...

EDIT: Plus, if I read prehensile tail correctly, it stacks...so spamming prehensile tail kills dodgy teams. Spamming jump up really hurts bashy teams.

Convince me that this isn't vastly overpowered...because the more I think about it the more it seems to be.

[dines]

Just a quick comment to nick: Why would you dodge from AV7? Even as an elf it might make sense to just block them rather than try to dodge away. And JU is good against bash, as they need to penetrate armor to keep players down, but again its AV7.

I think the first version seems kind fun.

[nick_nameless]

Just a quick comment to nick: Why would you dodge from AV7? Even as an elf it might make sense to just block them rather than try to dodge away. And JU is good against bash, as they need to penetrate armor to keep players down, but again its AV7.

I think the first version seems kind fun.

I am not sure that 'why' matter as much as the choice being taken away....but how about this: The Monkies have knocked all of your players down. All you can do is stand back up and take it, because there is prehensile tail spam everywhere and you can't dodge away. Your only hope is that your entire team has fend so the Monkies can't mark you while you are down after a block. On the occasion that you do get a player up and are able to throw a block and knock a monkey down, they are cool with that. They just jump up and throw a block at you on a 2+.

Again...I think it's worth play testing, it just seems ripe for abuse and imbalance.

[Joemanji]

No, it seems fine to me, even weak.

[nick_nameless]

I think I would start that team with 9 linemonkies, 2 blitzers and 5 rerolls.

As linemonkies die and others skill up, I would start adding in positionals

Once the line starts to get block, some tackle, some guard and some stand firm, I think it will get nasty. It's all opinion at this point, but I am thinking more of how the team will look as it develops up into the 1500-1750 range. I think it would get out of hand.

Give it mutation access like was originally designed and you have an entire team that can jump up on a 2+ after being knocked down and throw a block with claw. :shudder:

[legowarrior]

You can only get mutation on doubles. What stops you from having Beastman with claw?
Now, one of the changes that could happen is that I take away Jump Up from all but the blitzers, and reduce the price of all the players that had jump up taken away by 10.
But if that is the case, I would keep the option to fling monkeys. Also keep in mind that they don't have any strength 4 players except the big guy.

[nick_nameless]

You can only get mutation on doubles. What stops you from having Beastman with claw?
Now, one of the changes that could happen is that I take away Jump Up from all but the blitzers, and reduce the price of all the players that had jump up taken away by 10.
But if that is the case, I would keep the option to fling monkeys. Also keep in mind that they don't have any strength 4 players except the big guy.

The difference you are missing is: With Prehensile Tail everywhere, the other team can not effectively dodge away from your claw (or any other) players to limit you to one blitz attack with it. With Jump Up everywhere, the other team can not effectively knock down your claw (or any other) players to effectively limit you to one blitz with it.

The two skills you are giving the entire team are game changing skills when everyone has them. They might not be skills that people can or do choose regularly, but they will create a nightmare for opposing teams. Having one jump up player is nice and not a big deal to work around. And entire jump up team is potentially abusive, because it is a skill that directly disrupts a significant game mechanic 5 out of 6 times.

And again......I am just saying it should be playtested to see if it's broken. My opinion is really only worth the electrons representing it

[legowarrior]

At this time, I'm busy with my thesis, so I don't have time to play test the team, and I'm still muddling through some of the ideas that we have. Play testing mutation as a doubles skills in and of itself is especially going to be a long process.

Anyways, I think we should continue the discussion though.

[nick_nameless]

At this time, I'm busy with my thesis, so I don't have time to play test the team, and I'm still muddling through some of the ideas that we have. Play testing mutation as a doubles skills in and of itself is especially going to be a long process.

Anyways, I think we should continue the discussion though.

I may playtest this for you with a few friends. I don't mean to be a downer...I like the conceptual work. I just wonder about the balance without at least a small subset of games. I plan to try to abuse the aspects I thought were ripe for it .