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 Post subject: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:28 pm 
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Solid - When this player is not carrying the ball, if an opponent takes a block action against this player it's total effective strength including assists does not exceed this player's total effective strength including assists. This player may never provide assists. A player may not select this skill if it has Dodge, and may not select the dodge skill if it has Solid.


Last edited by Shushnik on Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:47 pm 
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Shushnik wrote:
Solid - When this player is not carrying the ball, an opponent taking a block action against this player may not roll more than one block die. This player may never provide assists. A player may not select this skill if it has Dodge, and may not select the dodge skill if it has Solid.


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I am so hitting this player with my snotlings :)

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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:05 pm 
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lunchmoney wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
Solid - When this player is not carrying the ball, an opponent taking a block action against this player may not roll more than one block die. This player may never provide assists. A player may not select this skill if it has Dodge, and may not select the dodge skill if it has Solid.


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I am so hitting this player with my snotlings :)


I guess I should reword that, because my thinking is that two dice against is less than one die, but I understand why it would read the way you're thinking.


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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:47 pm 
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Tantalizing Musk - Extraordinary

- This ability, found among the greatest Slaanesh worshippers, prevents all models(Friends and foe) in base contact from providing assists.

Addicted to pain - Extraordinary

- A model with this ability loves to get hurt and tends not to roll with the punches. Opponents get +1 to injury rolls against them.


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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:37 pm 
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I whould rewrite multiple block to work on blitz.

That would boost strength skills in general for a boost to big guys and ogres, and make it a more seen skill.

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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:38 am 
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Omalley69 wrote:
I whould rewrite multiple block to work on blitz.

That would boost strength skills in general for a boost to big guys and ogres, and make it a more seen skill.


Are you sure it can't be used on blitz already? I can't see why it can't be in CRP.


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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:13 am 
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CRP says "Block action", not "as part of a block", so no, it can't be used on a Blitz.

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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
CRP says "Block action", not "as part of a block", so no, it can't be used on a Blitz.


It also says:

Quote:
A blitz allows the player to move and make a block. The block may be made at any point during the move, but costs one square of movement for the player to make


So it seems Blitz is just a Block from its point of view, you just are allowed to move first. Dunno, it still doesn't look like it clearly denies you to use anything you can use during a Block in Blitz.


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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:00 pm 
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"Block action" and "block" are two different things, and have been since BB 3rd edition came out in 1995.
"Blitz action" allows you to move and make a "block", it doesn't say you can move and make a "block action".

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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
"Block action" and "block" are two different things, and have been since BB 3rd edition came out in 1995.
"Blitz action" allows you to move and make a "block", it doesn't say you can move and make a "block action".

That's interesting. What is difference between two? Could you refer me to something/quote something clarifying it, perhaps?


Last edited by Mori-mori on Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:21 pm 
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(Page numbers from CRP, as I don't have the BB2016 rule book.)

P.3 : LIST OF ACTIONS:
Quote:
Block: The player may make a single block against a player in an adjacent square. Players that are Prone may not perform this Action.

Blitz: The player may move a number of squares equal to their MA. He may make one block during the move. The block may be made at any point during the move, and !costs" one square of movement.


Notice the small "b" in the action description. Also notice that the Blitz says "block", not a "Block action".
Then look at the skills (Piling On for example, p.40):
Quote:
Piling On (Strength)
The player may use this skill after he has made a block as part of one of his Block or Blitz Actions, but

Notice the capital "B" and italics in "Block Action" as opposed the "b" in "block". This was a deliberate distinction the BBRC put in in a previous version to clear up confusion like this.

I'm sure Galak can come in and explain it better than I have, but be assured that a "Block Action" is different from a block, and a "Blitz Action" is not a move + "Block Action".

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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Better Stab:
Quote:
The player may use this skill if they are standing at the end of any action, to stab one opposing player who is in an adjacent square. It may be used only if no players from either team are adjacent to either player otherwise the ref is looking and sees the knife before it is used. The stab is resolved exactly as a foul and anything that would affect fouls will also affect this (e.g. Dirty Player, Sneaky Git e.t.c).

Additionally this skill can be used to stab even if the opposing player is standing, if the Armour roll is not successful, they remain standing however. This does not count as the team's foul action but the action it follows could be a foul.

this is meant to be swapped league wide and addresses that stab is too often the safe option and to make it more of a tool to assassinate players who wander around alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:12 am 
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rumBowl, there are too much discouragement to use it

1) No player must be adjacent to the Stabber. This will reduce number of situation when you can use skill
2) It's resolved as foul. So, it's mostly still the same Stab, but now with additional significant risk (33% of ejection)
3) ..and mostly the skill is still useless. -1 to roll from DP is not that much, comparing to the risk of ejection and taking into account there is no cheap players with Stab (in official rosters this will be only Assassin and Zara). The main feature of foul is the fact you can use assists, thus bumping your chances of successful removal of 1 opposing player to make up for the risks.

So, again, it's only relatively useful when you play against low AV teams. And you probably won't try to even use it unless you have bribes, you'll just be using fouls with enough assists instead, and that alone is more than enough of risk taken, you rarely will need even more. And usually few DE coaches decide to bloat their TV with assassins just in case they'll be playing some elves or flings. Assassins mostly a pure bloat against most of the teams, and very fragile (AV7). So it doesn't add much to the table, really..

May be just simply allowing to add DP effect to it will do, with all the rest left as it is atm? It will simply be a light buff to the skill, and Assassins. I would also consider giving them AV8 to the boot - while keeping their current value, or slightly bumping it. That would make them attractive enough option.

Another approach could be to give Stab some additional unique useful quality. Like, ability to override Block skill, for example? Probably because it's hard to fend off attacker if he tries to cut your hands with a hidden blade, or something. So, if Stabber blitzes, or blocks somebody with Block skill, on both down he negates it? Wrestlers still are skilled enough to evade knives, so they are unaffected :) As slight debuff, you still could treat this "negate Block" action as Stab skill usage, thus no SPPs are earned from CAS this way. And, if it's still doesn't seem enough, Block negate action could be treated as foul (if doubles are rolled on either armor or injury it means ejection, but no assists are accounted for during armor roll in this case), thus you have a risk of ejection. So that would turn Assassins into sort of powerful ball sackers (and with their AG4 and A access they could get Leap easily and use it effctively as well, very interesting combo), but still with some risk included. If treating it like foul option is chosen, it could also be allowed for it to negate Wrestle as well, why not, it's already balanced enough by the high risk of ejection.


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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:48 pm 
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Mori-mori wrote:
rumBowl, there are too much discouragement to use it

1) No player must be adjacent to the Stabber. This will reduce number of situation when you can use skill
2) It's resolved as foul. So, it's mostly still the same Stab, but now with additional significant risk (33% of ejection)
3) ..and mostly the skill is still useless. -1 to roll from DP is not that much, comparing to the risk of ejection and taking into account there is no cheap players with Stab (in official rosters this will be only Assassin and Zara). The main feature of foul is the fact you can use assists, thus bumping your chances of successful removal of 1 opposing player to make up for the risks.

So, again, it's only relatively useful when you play against low AV teams. And you probably won't try to even use it unless you have bribes, you'll just be using fouls with enough assists instead, and that alone is more than enough of risk taken, you rarely will need even more. And usually few DE coaches decide to bloat their TV with assassins just in case they'll be playing some elves or flings. Assassins mostly a pure bloat against most of the teams, and very fragile (AV7). So it doesn't add much to the table, really..

May be just simply allowing to add DP effect to it will do, with all the rest left as it is atm? It will simply be a light buff to the skill, and Assassins. I would also consider giving them AV8 to the boot - while keeping their current value, or slightly bumping it. That would make them attractive enough option.

Another approach could be to give Stab some additional unique useful quality. Like, ability to override Block skill, for example? Probably because it's hard to fend off attacker if he tries to cut your hands with a hidden blade, or something. So, if Stabber blitzes, or blocks somebody with Block skill, on both down he negates it? Wrestlers still are skilled enough to evade knives, so they are unaffected :) As slight debuff, you still could treat this "negate Block" action as Stab skill usage, thus no SPPs are earned from CAS this way. And, if it's still doesn't seem enough, Block negate action could be treated as foul (if doubles are rolled on either armor or injury it means ejection, but no assists are accounted for during armor roll in this case), thus you have a risk of ejection. So that would turn Assassins into sort of powerful ball sackers (and with their AG4 and A access they could get Leap easily and use it effctively as well, very interesting combo), but still with some risk included. If treating it like foul option is chosen, it could also be allowed for it to negate Wrestle as well, why not, it's already balanced enough by the high risk of ejection.

probably should have phrased it differently, wasn't really trying to make stab *actually* better as dark elves are already a top team and any improvements can't be good for balance. Was addressing that assassins don't hunt out players, instead they mark someone slow (because shadowing) with low av (because stab) and make 100% safe stabs turn after turn if they can with no chance of being sent off (odd as surely it should be a secret weapon). Was going for more maneuverable but also more risky than the original.

saying that you are right it is a weak skill, maybe more than the original. Would you feel it more balanced with the no player adjacent rule replaced with no friendly assists for the stabber? Or just removed altogether? The rule was there to get the wandering catcher killer feel but maybe there is a better way. Also worth saying against av7 teams, 3 fouls a turn with 2 assassins is a lot


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 Post subject: Re: Do You Have A New Skill Idea?
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:31 pm 
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rumBowl wrote:
probably should have phrased it differently, wasn't really trying to make stab *actually* better as dark elves are already a top team and any improvements can't be good for balance. Was addressing that assassins don't hunt out players, instead they mark someone slow (because shadowing) with low av (because stab) and make 100% safe stabs turn after turn if they can with no chance of being sent off (odd as surely it should be a secret weapon). Was going for more maneuverable but also more risky than the original.


I think the main problem still left with the skill is that just one player has it - Assassin - and that player is not very attractive option, in the first place. So we can waste a lot of time figuring out how to make the skill more "fluffy" (it now appears to me that was your intention initially), but in the end it will make little difference not worth all the effort :) Without giving assassins some kind of buff so that they would become a valid option in comparison with a simple DE lineman, it doesn't make much sense. And you are right, DE already are very good, so this topic should be approached with extra caution. Imo, the best option would be to make Assassin situationally useful against any/most of the teams (as atm having him on the roster makes sense mostly when you do have a lot of stuntys/low-AV elves in your tournament table/local league, in other cases it's a bloat and easy pray (AV7) for bashers). So that's what I tried to achieve by the idea of giving him ability to negate block (with additional risk of ejection). This would be useful in a wide range of situations, but still would mean you need to risk your quite expensive player while doing this trick. Seems fairly balanced to me, taking into account he still will have AV7. May be in that case we shouldn't touch Stab's definition at all, and just give him Extraordinary skill designed special for him.

I've also seen a steamy discussion around proposal of giving Claw to assassin occasionally (though there are 2 of them on the roster, only one can wear a Claw, and only once per match), together with a Secret Weapon. So the idea was that at the start of the drive assassin may decide to equip his Claw for the next drive (coupled with a Secret Weapon and optionally with some debuff to MA and AV while he wears it). That would make him somehow useful even when playing with bashy team (and useful in a fluffy way), yet he'll most likely be removed after that drive, if you don't have bribes. Yet, as you don' have to wear it all the time, it doesn't make him worse in cases when he is already good, like when playing with other elves and some hybrid teams.

rumBowl wrote:
saying that you are right it is a weak skill, maybe more than the original. Would you feel it more balanced with the no player adjacent rule replaced with no friendly assists for the stabber? Or just removed altogether? The rule was there to get the wandering catcher killer feel but maybe there is a better way. Also worth saying against av7 teams, 3 fouls a turn with 2 assassins is a lot


That wouldn't nerf it that much as original idea did, but still, as I mentioned above, simply changing the skill to be more "assassiny" won't change the general coaches' decision to not meddle with Assassins at all. Regarding 3 fouls per turn.. well may be OP slightly, may be not, as you still risk ejection during each, and in case of Assassins it's ejection of a fairly expensive players.


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