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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:28 pm 
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besters wrote:
You would need an individuals permission to add them to the NAF database, presumably they wouldn't give it as they may be turning down free membership anyway.

You don't have to be a NAF member to access statistics and coach records.

Don't think that's true, although the usual I am not a lawyer disclaimer applies. Think about how many marketing databases your details are on without ever giving permission. Ticking the box that says they cannot contact you, certainly doesn't stop them from storing the information.
The UK DPA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Act_1998) states:
Quote:
Personal data shall be processed fairly and lawfully and, in particular, shall not be processed unless ... at least one of the conditions in Schedule 2 is met.

Of those conditions, the one most likely applicable to the NAF would be:
Quote:
Processing is necessary in order to pursue the legitimate interests of the "data controller" or "third parties" (unless it could unjustifiably prejudice the interests of the data subject).

Maintaining a record of all BB matches is a legitimate interest and no-ones interests are prejudiced by an email address being held against match records. As long as the email address is not used for unwanted communication or marketing, I can't see the issue.

That said, it doesn't even have to be held against an email address, matches could be allocated to dummy accounts or a single catch-all account (The Unnamed Coach) in order to allow them to be recorded. The advantage of an email address was only that it would link matches to coaches across tournaments and potentially make them available at a later date. Must be plenty of NAF coaches who didn't join until their second or later tournament.


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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:30 pm 
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See my post earlier. ;)

Though not sure about the email bit - very few new players have contacted me for the ARBBL via email - it's usually via a forum or FB. If they don't want to join then they're probably not going to want to give me (or the NAF) their email address.
And I don't think retroactively ranking someone's games is a good idea either, if only for the recalculation issue.

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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:23 am 
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Darkson wrote:
See my post earlier. ;)

Sorry, not sure what you're referring to here.

Darkson wrote:
Though not sure about the email bit - very few new players have contacted me for the ARBBL via email - it's usually via a forum or FB. If they don't want to join then they're probably not going to want to give me (or the NAF) their email address.
And I don't think retroactively ranking someone's games is a good idea either, if only for the recalculation issue.

The email was just an example, if you wanted to try and identify unique coaches without a NAF name. I'd agree that most tournament signups don't come via email but most payments are via PayPal which provides an email address.
Regardless, all the matches could be assigned to a default NAF account for the purposes of recording the match. Would have to be excluded from the rankings calculation though unless a default ranking of 150 was used in all cases. Not sure how that would impact the ELO. That might defeat the whole purpose of doing it in the first place but it might be nice to have the results recorded even if they're not used in calculations.


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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:46 am 
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Vanguard wrote:
... but most payments are via PayPal which provides an email address.
...

Gotta disagree with you there. 100% of the new members I have signed up, and renewals completed, people have either handed me the cash or paypal'd me directly. I have then forwarded the money to NAF. By your reasoning there are a lot of NAF coaches in the SW area that all use my email address ;)

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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:05 am 
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Darkson wrote:
In the past, it's been suggested that any non-NAF coach is entered as a "non-NAF", and is either ranked at a permanent CR150, or isn't used in the ranking but still displays a coaches results (so for your example, you'd still only ranked on your 3 losses, but you results page would show 3/0/3 [or whatever you went]). Neither idea seemed to gain much traction the multiple times they've been suggested.

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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:54 am 
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frogboy wrote:
I started thinking, whats the point in being a NAF memeber if you always loose?

What do they offer?

Theres no record of Most Casulties, or most touchdowns. Is there a record of stunty cups won or other interesting things? I mean when they had the block dice gift i was a member without even playing games as i liked that gift.

For someone like me who persistantly puts in poor results whats the point?


I've never thought of it that way! :o

You could play loads of tournaments unranked, get really good, sign up with NAF and be a rookie sensation, as far as the records state. Mind blown.

I'm a bit like you (the losing often bit), but I bring sensible rosters and still tank!

Will still renew my membership, I like the toys.

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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 2:23 pm 
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lunchmoney wrote:
Vanguard wrote:
... but most payments are via PayPal which provides an email address.
...

Gotta disagree with you there. 100% of the new members I have signed up, and renewals completed, people have either handed me the cash or paypal'd me directly. I have then forwarded the money to NAF. By your reasoning there are a lot of NAF coaches in the SW area that all use my email address ;)

Yes, but that's not the point. As TO you have their PayPal email address which could be included in the results sent to the NAF in place of a NAF ID. This isn't about NAF registration but tournament results recording.
Darkson wrote:
In the past, it's been suggested that any non-NAF coach is entered as a "non-NAF", and is either ranked at a permanent CR150, or isn't used in the ranking but still displays a coaches results (so for your example, you'd still only ranked on your 3 losses, but you results page would show 3/0/3 [or whatever you went]). Neither idea seemed to gain much traction the multiple times they've been suggested.

Ah, yes, exactly what I was proposing. As a data geek I'd much rather the matches were captured and recorded, even if they're not actually used for anything. They'd still be valid for tracking number of matches played for example.


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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:41 pm 
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Just for the record I'm not angry with the NAF or about to rage quit (soz to anyone hopping for that, well not really) guess I'm just questioning what I have always taken for granted. I missed the NAFC this year where Lycos normally catches me on the way in. I like to support the NAF, I have been a member even since before playing in tournaments, similar to the reason I still support FUMBBL despite not playing much. I'm a Blood Bowl fanatic, i listen to Johnny P and scrape little metal men made ten plus years ago removing their imperfections thinking how great it is, sometimes i paint them too ;)

I've learnt a lot from this thread already, I just wish someone would step up who could action change. We've all heard the promises of new websites etc in the past.

So just don't understand the stagnant defense of things that can change, if members want change and others don't believe its possible its not the same as members want change and others don't want the change to happen. Vanguard has already suggested ways to change.

I would love to see records for Casualties, Touchdowns, Fouls and I'm sure there are others who would suggest things too. As the NAF forum is pretty dead I think it was a good idea to get some feedback here first. Maybe we can run a campaign to finally get the website updated.

I've created a thread on The NAF forum to discuss change found here:- https://member.thenaf.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=7010

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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:01 pm 
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Just to say, I have read the stuff here, and am considering how to respond. Particularly to frog's last post.

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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 7:11 pm 
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Vanguard wrote:
Yes, but that's not the point. As TO you have their PayPal email address which could be included in the results sent to the NAF in place of a NAF ID. This isn't about NAF registration but tournament results recording.

You'd still need to get their permission to share their details with the NAF - or are you quite happy for (say) your phone company to share your details with car dealerships?

frogboy wrote:
So just don't understand the stagnant defense of things that can change, if members want change and others don't believe its possible its not the same as members want change and others don't want the change to happen. Vanguard has already suggested ways to change.

Some members want (this) change. As I've posted twice now, Vanguard's idea is not a new one, this has been talked about for 10+ years - some members like it, some don't and the vast majority haven't been bothered enough either way to voice an opinion. How do you know you're not in the minority wanting this? (For the record, I've always been for it.)

There's a difference between the NAF staff not doing something because they can't be bothered or think its possible, and not doing something because it's not wanted.

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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:19 pm 
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True. I dont know, I'm just asking question :)

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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:10 pm 
Kommissar Enthusiasmoff
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Darkson wrote:
There's a difference between the NAF staff not doing something because they can't be bothered or think its possible, and not doing something because it's not wanted.


Did you mean "it's not possible"?

Frog - you've raised a whole load of different questions, including whether there is someone who could "step up". Well, in six months time they will have the chance to do so! Lots of people in the NAF do work hard at a voluntary position, and it's one of those things that takes a lot to keep things ticking over, so making changes requires effort over and above that. The door is always open for anyone who wants to get involved, especially if the skillset is right.

You've raised quite a few different questions, and I'd be very happy to talk to you about them at Foulbowl or Cake (if you're going?). In particular at the moment there are more changes happening with the rankings than there have been in a decade probably, and some of the stuff you have mentioned is already being looked at, but I don't want to go into loads of detail at the moment in case it doesn't come to fruition.

Specific suggestions always welcome, on an ongoing basis. I will for example run a "dummy account" past the committee and see what they think, and then see if it is technically possible.

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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:35 am 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
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Hey Sann, thanks for the reply

Yeah I'm going to Cake Bowl so always welcome to chat between trouncings at the table :)

So I guess these questions just ran away and led to this, I only started thinking about making changes when I questioned the NAF sanctioning at events.

As far as stepping up myself I cant as I'm not a wizard and also I have no skills that relate to interweb pages, well actually I'm a forum mod on another slumbering Warhammer website. So if you need someone to delete spam (i love spam, did I mention I'll be at Foul Bowl too) I'm your guy ;)

I guess the two main points that have come out of this is:

1a) Can we record games from non NAF registered coaches somehow "dummy account".
b) Pre-register without payment or gift so record still shows if coach later decides to register.
c) Something else similar which still alows registered coaches to see record of all games played at NAF Sanctioned events dispite who they play (opponent registered or not).

2) Can we have more records showing which include, but not exclusively, other satistics, for example; Casulties, Touchdowns, Fouls.

I dont think anyone can argue that they don't want this, if someone could wave a magic wand or click their heals together and it happen in an instant.

Just food for though, if 50% of the people playing are in the top half of the satistics, and lets be honest mainly people who are running or have been involved in running the NAF are up in the top half, then at least 50% are in the bottom half.
So what brings us bottom feeders back time and time again, is it because we want to inflate Jomanji's ranking score with another poor result (apologies we've never played just picking on you cause I know your up there at the top) probably not, if you really break it down its the free gift. Which means everything else on the website is pointless to at least 50% of the users.

Harsh i know.

Saying all this I do respect you guys, we dont see what goes on behind the scenes. Its a volunteery service I get it, and if I had skills I'd electrify it.

:orc:

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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 6:47 am 
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What has being in the top half got to do with checking ranking? I check mine and I'm a decidedly average player, and I know others do to, whether they're good or not.

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 Post subject: Re: NAF Sanctioning at events with none NAF registered coach
 Post Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:41 am 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
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Well your not everyone. The point is the main purpose of the NAF is for the rankings. If your not into that then what is there except collecting your free gift at the NAFC or wherever you get caught.

Im not trying to convince you or anyone to change your mind im just saying that for some people, perhaps, theres nothing really interesting about the membership.

There are other members who don't share the same views. Either start caring for them or what... I dont know, we start a revolution? Obviously not. Im just saying if its so blindly obvious that people want to join the NAF. Its so bloody amazing being a member then why did i go to a tournement recently and play 3 non NAF members who when asked outright on facebook said, and as is their, right "no thanks i'm not interested in all that rankings bollox"

Im not fussed really one bit either way, I'm playing devils advocate, floging a dead horse or trying to draw water from a stone.

Im also assuming that people who dont care about the NAF have ever read a thread like this now in the past or in the future. Because 'ding dong' their not interested. So i pose the question, how can we make the NAF more interesting to new and old players so they do want to sign up. So them once in a blue moon (becoming more common) situations dont frustrate, as the NAF agrees with, excisting members....

:puke:

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