Fronko wrote:Are goblins useful for an orc team?
Very. I never play orcs without starting with 4 of them! Think of them as human catchers with -2 MA but who can dodge through tackle zones at 3+ all the time. Seriously, they rock, even without TTM. What a lot of people don't know is that orcs can have a passing game just as good (better if you ask me) as humans do. Try it, you'll be amazed.
Read this old article of mine if you want. It was made for 3rd ed, so some of the things are outdated (e.g. hand offs), but it's still pretty good. I also provide here a follow up i made back in 4th ed.
Edit: sorry about the screwed up font. I tried to repair it to no avail.
Orcs are agile!
by Zombie
There is a common misconception amongst Blood Bowl coaches. They think that orcs are a bunch of brainless maniacs whose only talent is their fighting skill. Well they are wrong. Orcs are just as agile as humans and just as good at the passing game. Let me show you…
First of all, you must remember that orcs are the only team that can have allies under the standard rules. They can hire up to 4 goblins. Now if you think that goblins are pretty bad players, let’s just compare them to human catchers. A shocking thought right now for you I’m sure, but stay with me on this.
Compared to human catchers, goblins have: -2 MA, no catch, no access to general skills, but stunty and right stuff. Right stuff doesn’t usually make a difference. 6 MA is usually all you need to score in 2 turns, especially if you’re as good a dodger as they are and you can get easy access to sprint and especially sure feet. No access to general skills is the worst setback, but can be countered by doubles if you’re lucky – and if you’re not, at 40k, you can always fire them and hire new goblin prospects. Stunty is what makes all the difference. It makes them easier to injure, but since they’re easily replaceable at 40k, it doesn’t really matter. But mainly, it allows them to dodge like elves. You can dodge into 5 tackle zones and it’s still a 3+! This really tends to annoy the opposing coach. And if you ever get an AG4 goblin, consider yourself blessed as you will be able to dodge at 2+ all the time. Use this goblin only on offense and protect him carefully. And pray for a double to give him block and keep him alive longer. In light of all that’s been said, and especially due to the stunty skill, I think it’s fair to argue that a goblin makes as good a catcher as a human catcher.
Now let’s compare the rest of the orc team to its human counterpart. Both get 4 blitzers. Orc blitzers have –1 MA but +1 AV, so they’re pretty much the same. 7 MA would be better, but 6 is still all right. They also cost 10k less. Then you have the throwers. The only difference between human and orc throwers is 1 MA. This makes human throwers a little better, but orc throwers will be getting the same skills and will be equally good at throwing long passes. Finally, the orc linemen have –1 MA and +1 AV. This is good for a lineman, as you won’t be scoring with them anyway (ever seen a human lineman score regularly?) and their higher AV will help them a lot. Did I miss something? The orcs are also entitled to 4 black orcs, right? You could say that it doesn’t make them better at the passing game, but their presence on the line of scrimmage frees the blitzers who can then concentrate better on defending the catchers (I use the words goblin and catcher interchangeably as goblins are really in my opinion the orc catchers).
So as you can see, we have all the ingredients here for a good all-around team that can play a passing game with 2 decent throwers and 4 catchers. The only real weakness is the low movement, partly but not entirely compensated by the incredible ability of goblins to dodge their way through the line without having to go around it. This is my vision of what a good orc team should be (and also how I always play them): a passing team with a great front line. Now I will show you how I like to develop my orc teams to reach this goal. I will assume a league without star players and allies, mainly because I hate both and I don’t think that they should be used in any league.
STARTING LINE-UP
Here is the kind of starting team that I use:
4 Goblins 160k
2 Throwers 140k
2 Blitzers 160k
2 Black orcs 160k
1 Lineman 50k
9 Fan factor 90k
4 Re-rolls 240k
Total 1000k
A fan factor of 9 is a must for any team. You need as much money coming in as you can get and it also helps you win the kickoff events. 4 re-rolls is never too much, especially if you want to play a risky passing game. Also, having so many re-rolls lets you take chances like going for it, which effectively increases your player’s movement (your main weakness). You can trade 1 or 2 blitzers for black orcs or vice versa, depending on your preferences.
The 4 goblins are there to serve as catchers, but also because they are cheap – cheaper than linemen actually. Why take a lineman when you can get for less money someone who can dodge his way through any situation? The only problem with starting with 4 goblins is that you will be very weak on defense until you can buy other players to replace them on defensive drives. This makes you weaker in the first few games, but you can try to compensate by scoring a lot. Either way it’s good for you, because high-scoring games allow for a lot of SPPs and your team will advance faster.
If you play in a particularly hard-hitting league, you could drop a re-roll and use the money to trade 3 goblins for 2 linemen and a blitzer or a black orc, but in most cases I would rather keep it as is. The reason for not starting with an apothecary is because your players are either very sturdy or extremely cheap and therefore expendable. However, if you start in an already established league and your first game is against a team that already has at least one dirty player, drop a re-roll and a goblin and get an apothecary and a lineman.
Another reason for starting with as few linemen as possible is the following: assuming no star players, allies or big guys, you can get 14 position players. This only leaves place for 2 linemen. If you were to buy more, you would have to drop them later on. If you play in a league with big guys, that brings the total up to 16 position players! You still need one lineman on your starting team to get the leader skill, as you can easily drop him later on when you have enough re-rolls.
SKILLS
Let’s now move to skill development. Here is what I try to do (doubles are in parenthesis):
Black orcs
2 with block, mighty blow, guard, (diving tackle)
2 with block, stand firm, tackle, (diving tackle)
The first pair serves on the line of scrimmage, while the other covers the wide zones on defense. Both can serve to protect the ball carrier when the going gets tough.
Blitzers
2 with stand firm, guard, mighty blow, (dodge)
2 with dirty player, pro, stand firm, (dodge)
The first pair gives you players who can get anywhere to lend an assist (extremely useful). The second pair, well you know what they’re for J. I usually pick linemen to be my dirty players, but since this team doesn’t need linemen (with so many position players), blitzers are the next best thing for that purpose. Stand firm is nice to help reach the intended victim.
Throwers
1 with accurate, strong arm, safe throw, (ignore doubles)
1 with accurate, block, nerves of steel, (dodge)
The first one is your offensive thrower. He needs to be able to get the ball anywhere. The other is your defensive thrower. He needs to be able to defend himself, as well as pick up the ball in a brawl and get it out of there.
Linemen
Leader, kick, block, (dodge)
Your only lineman won’t be in your team forever if you play with big guys (no place for linemen when you have 16 position players available). He needs leader so he can at least make himself useful to the team while he’s there. When you finally get rid of him because you need to free space on your roster, be sure to give kick to a blitzer. You shouldn’t need a leader at that point because you’ll probably have 5 or 6 re-rolls (starting with 4 helps in this regard).
If your league doesn’t have big guys, that leaves place for 2 permanent linemen. Keep the temporary one mentioned above, but replace him later with two dirty player linemen. This frees your 2 blitzers to become real blitzers instead of just dirty players, giving them strip ball, frenzy, pro, tackle and the like (leap could even be considered on a double; it can work even at 4+ and then you can threaten to steal the ball no matter how well protected it is).
Goblins
Catch, sure feet, side step, (block)
These are your designated catchers. They need catch! Sure feet boosts their usable movement to 8 (going for it without a re-roll is not an option and you would rather keep your re-rolls for more important matters). Side step helps them survive and makes them even more annoying. If you don’t roll a double in the first two skills, you may consider firing the goblin and hiring a new one. They are cheap and gain SPPs fast by scoring TDs. If, on the other hand, you are lucky enough to roll two doubles, go for either block and dauntless or block and stand firm. Block and dauntless gives you a player who can reach the ball carrier anywhere and get a reasonable chance at stealing the ball (especially if helped by stand firm/guard blitzers). The problem with this strategy is that you will be putting a very valuable goblin in the middle of brawls, which may not be a good idea. Keep your apothecary handy! The block and stand firm goblin makes the perfect catcher, as he will be able to dodge anywhere without any fear of falling. Your opponents will hate him.
Ogres
1 with block, break tackle, (+1 ST)
1 with block, pro, (+1 ST)
If you play in a league with big guys, I strongly suggest getting 2 ogres as soon as you can get 120k in your treasury, but not before you have at least 13 players. They are hitting machines, and should be used as such. Get them in the middle of brawls and don’t be scared about what happens to them: they’ll take care of themselves. Use them also to get rid of the opponent’s own big guys. The ogre with break tackle can dodge into 2 tackle zones at 3+ and is therefore perfect for getting to a well-protected ball carrier and making sure that he doesn’t carry it anymore! If you roll a double, take +1 ST and then get throw teammate on your next skill. You already have 4 players with right stuff on your roster. The mere possibility of the one turn touchdown will make your opponent stay on his toes and might win you some games when you receive the ball on the 8th turn of either half.
TACTICS
Ok, so what do you do with this team now? First of all, never play the goblins on defense (unless you’ve got that block/dauntless goblin I talked about). They are too fragile and you don’t really need catchers on defense anyway. If you do steal the ball from the opponent, you can always toss it to a blitzer. They make good catchers and scorers too. Now, this being said, let’s study the plays in more details.
Offense
Well, as you might have guessed, I will be discussing the passing game. The first thing you should do is pick up the ball and secure it (either by surrounding the thrower or by moving him out of reach of the other team). Then beat up the opposing front line. Make a hole on one side and move 2 goblins through it. Dodge another goblin right through the opposition on the other side (remember he has stunty). A stand firm goblin is perfect here. If you have one, make him move first (before even picking up the ball) since his move is totally safe and can’t cause a turnover. You can either keep the 4th goblin protected behind your line or move him up with the others.
Your opponent will now be swarmed with catchers in his half of the field and he will be left with two options. He can put all available manpower into covering the goblins. In that case advance with the ball, well covered by your black orcs, and dodge the goblins out of trouble. Wait for the next turn to score unless you see a good opportunity. The other option for the opponent is to cover the goblins lightly in order to put more pressure on the thrower. In this case, it’s a simple matter of move, pass, move, move, hand off, move, score. The only problem will be finding that middle guy to pass the ball to. He will either be the 4th goblin that you left behind or a blitzer. If it’s a blitzer, your team re-roll might come in handy here to catch the ball. Every other roll will be covered by a skill reroll: pass for the thrower, dodge and catch for the scoring goblin.
If anything goes wrong (for example, a Blitz! result on the kickoff table) and you fear that your opponent might have a chance at getting to the ball, form a cage around the ball carrier using black orcs and blitzers and keep the goblins moving outside to prepare for a pass next turn. Diving tackle on one or two black orcs can be very handy here to protect your ball carrier.
Defense
Once you’ve got at least 15 players, you can have all 4 goblins sit on the bench on defense. Have 2 black orcs flank a blitzer on the line of scrimmage. In each wide zone, put an immovable black orc (block, stand firm and hopefully diving tackle) on the outside and a blitzer (preferably with guard) on the inside. The remaining 4 players stand in the middle, separated by one empty square each. All 8 players (not counting the 3 on the LoS) stay two squares away from the line in case of a quick snap. To keep them out of trouble, the dirty player and the defensive thrower are the two players in the middle. One of the 2 players surrounding them should have the kick skill. The four safest positions are the two spots in the middle and the two next to the black orcs in the wide zones. Put your weakest and most targeted players there (goblins, throwers, dirty players). Just to make sure that this is clear, on the third row, you should have something like the following: empty square, black orc, blitzer, empty square, blitzer, empty square, thrower, empty square, dirty player, empty square, kicker, empty square, blitzer, black orc, empty square.
If your opponent tries the passing game, go for the ball carrier with most of your squad, keeping an eye on the catchers and maiming as many players as you can (first priority is the dirty player, second are the catchers). If you can break the ball loose, pick it up with your thrower, send it to a blitzer and secure it as best you can. Try to score if you can. Don’t be afraid to make risky plays.
If your opponent forms a cage, you’ve got two options. If you have a blitzer with leap or at least stand firm, or a block/dauntless goblin, try to reach the ball carrier and if you can get the ball lose, get it out of their reach (you can probably outrun most teams that use the cage). The other option (more sound in my opinion against the hard-hitting teams that usually form cages) is to stand in front of the cage to keep it from advancing. Don’t stand next to the opposing players, but one square away so they can’t hit you. If they move next to you in order to block you next turn, block them first. Select your blocks carefully to try and break the cage open and reach the ball carrier. In any case, pay great attention to wandering players outside the cage to make sure they don’t get anywhere. Double team them or blitz and foul them.
CONCLUSION
I hope I was able to convince you that orcs can play a passing game. If you’re still not convinced, try it! If done right, it can be pretty tough to beat. A passing team that can also hit like orcs is not something to dismiss. The best way to beat this team is to get rid of its catchers. If your opponent successfully removes most of your goblins from the game, either use blitzers in the same manner (they lack dodge, catch and stunty, but they’ve still got the 6 MA and 3 AG) or change your game plan and go for a running game for the remainder of the match. The latter alternative has the added benefit of throwing the opposing coach off-balance, and may even have him wondering how he can beat you! Just make sure that you practice this method and know how to use it well. The goblins should be back for the next game, either because they have healed or because you bought new ones, so you’ll be able to return to the passing game right on your next match. Good luck!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Really, i feel honored to know that the article has actually influenced someone.
Your question is an interesting one, at least to me. I'll answer it as best as i can, without going into as much detail as i did in the article.
<b>Allies</b>
The available allies are: Chaos, Chaos dwarf, Goblin, Norse, Ogre.
From the goblin team list, the only good ally is the troll, since you've already got 4 goblins, and those can use rerolls. I used to really like the ogre over the troll, but i've recently realized that for what they do (punch on the line), the troll does it better, thanks to regeneration. So away with goblins and ogres.
The other interesting allies, imo, are a norse catcher, a norse lineman, a chaos warrior, a beastman and a bull centaur.
If we were talking about another team, i might be tempted to say, take the troll and both interesting linemen, to max out on positional players. However, this is orcs we're talking about; they're already pretty maxed out. With 4 BOBs, 4 blitzers, 4 goblins and 2 throwers, they only have place left for 2 allies. This makes the choice even more difficult.
I think the chaos warrior is out of the question. I'd rather have a troll as my positional ally. The norse catcher is nice, but you already have 4 catchers in your goblins, so out as well. The bull centaur is tempting i must admit. He helps you in the speed department, and we know that's one of the orcs' main downfall. However, sprint and sure feet aren't what they used to be before OSPA. Because of that, i stick with the troll.
Now onto the lineman ally. We have to choose between a beastman (to add to your 4 blitzers) or a norse lineman (always nice to have a 50k lineman with block). The norse is great for short term (the same goes for a hobgoblin), but in the long run you want something with more AV on the line, so out he goes. You already have enough cheap players with your 4 gobbos anyway. The beastman is nice, but horns aren't what they used to be, thanks to OSPA. Also, you don't want to rely on an ally for your most important blitzes. However, he might add an interesting aspect to your team: mutations. Because of this, i choose the beastman. The norse lineman can still be taken as a short term proposal.
<b>Team lineup</b>
Here's what my final lineup looks like now in 4th ed:
2 Throwers
4 Black orc blockers
4 Blitzers (one with a chainsaw)
4 Goblins
1 Beastman
1 Troll
Notice that it looks a lot like the version in my article with 2 ogres, except for the beastman.
My starting lineup would look something like this:
2 Throwers 140k
2 Black orc blockers 160k
4 Goblins 160k
1 Norse lineman 50k
1 Beastman 60k
1 Troll 100k
9 FF 90k
4 RR 240k
I always try to start with cheap players to capitalize on FF and RR.
<b>Strategy</b>
This lineup gives me 3 big players from the start (2 BOBs and a troll) for a strong LOS. Later, when i have 2 more BOBs, i can use my favorite defense that i find very effective against fast teams (i can use it right now but it's not as efficient). I put 2 BOBs and the troll on the line. Then i put a BOB in each wide zone, each flanking a blitzer (or whatever needs protection). Behind the LOS, i would put a thrower and a beastman (or whatever needs protection the most). Finally, 2 blitzers go next to the wide zones. Everyone is two squares back, except for the 3 players on the line. This looks something like the following:
Starting team:
oooo oBoToBo oooo
oooo ooooooo oooo
oCGo PoGoGoP oGNo
Final team:
oooo oBoToBo oooo
oooo ooooooo oooo
oBZo ZoPoCoZ oZBo
o: empty square
T: troll
B: BOB
Z: blitzer
P: thrower (p for passer)
C: beastman (c for chaos)
G: goblin
N: norse lineman
What this does is make it impossible for fast teams to slip anyone through without either making 3 dodges, hitting a ST3 player and making 2 dodges if he doesn't fall, or hitting a ST4 player.
Of course, you can also start your team with 2 blitzers instead of the black orcs, since the former are so much better in almost every aspect. You will be stronger on offense but weaker on defense.
On offense, well i can refer you to my article, because my strategy stays the same: get as many gobbos as you can passed their line, and throw the ball to one of them on the second turn. This is tougher now in 4th ed because you can't hand off to a moving player, so you might have a longer pass to make. Getting a second thrower asap and giving them both accurate and strong arm on a double will be of prime importance. Of course, an AG4 player wouldn't hurt either!
<b>Skills and traits</b>
The skills have changed considerably now in 4th ed with the addition of traits and the change of some skills (e.g. diving tackle). Here is what i would try now, but keep in mind that i haven't played orcs in 4th ed yet, so this will be less than accurate. Doubles are in parenthesis.
<u>Throwers</u>
One with Accurate, Safe throw, Block, (Strong arm)
One with Accurate, Block, Dump off, (Strong arm)
<u>Black orcs</u>
Two with Block, Tackle, (Side step or Diving tackle)
One with Block, Pilling on, (Jump up)
One with Block, Guard, (Stand firm)
The first two are obviously the ones near the sidelines on defense. The choice of skill on a double depends on how many frenzy players there are in the best opposing teams.
<u>Blitzers</u>
One with Chainsaw, Dirty player, Pass block, (Dodge)
One with Strip ball, Mighty blow, (Dodge)
One with Mighty blow, Tackle, (Dodge)
One with Dirty player, Kick, (Dodge)
Note: do you think that the chainsaw and the Dirty player skill could be used at the same time? I mean, the chainsaw is not a skill and so should be exempt from OSPA... If not, then give him Shadowing instead. I don't see how this guy will get many SPPs anyway, not being allowed to carry the ball and not being given casualties when using the chainsaw. He will rely on MVPs a lot. Another option, of course, is to give the chainsaw to a goblin instead. Both options are equally good if you ask me.
<u>Goblins</u>
Two with Catch, Diving catch, (Block)
Two with Catch, Side step, (Block)
<u>Norse</u>
Kick, Dirty player, (Leader)
All skills that i believe fit very well for a player who won't stay on the team forever.
<u>Beastman</u>
Block, Pass block, (Foul appearance)
Pass block has the advantage of making the player move out of turn, where you wouldn't get access to a team reroll anyway, so using an ally for this makes sense.
<u>Troll</u>
Block, Guard, (Get rid of Really stupid)
<b>Final note</b>
Now that i look at it, i don't think that this strategy is nearly as good now as it was in 3rd ed. OSPA has severly limited the orc passing game. The fact that goblins can't get Nerves of steel has made the impact of the new hand off rules more extreme on orcs than on any other team. Still, it's worth a try, but i don't garanty any results. If you try it, i'd be interested in getting some feedback. Good luck!
