Balrog's Guide to Chaos

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:39 am

Korhil ....

Has Ski updated the Java tool so that Piling On is decided AFTER the armour roll is made ... if not ... this might explain why you don't see the value of the skill.

Galak

Vesticle · Post by **Vesticle** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:16 pm

You actually choose to use Piling on before the block, but it's only used is needed. So if you can penetrate armor without it, or won't penetrate armor with it, your guy won't fall over. You just need to choose... well, whether or not you will choose to use it, before the time to actually choose it occurs...

And in case you're wondering about 'the math', if you care to do the calculations, you'll find that while RSC has a lower chance to get a stun, it has a higher chance to get a casualty, generally.

David

Korhil · Post by **Korhil** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 3:56 pm

Stuns win games. Claw makes you break most armour on an Average roll. Too often RSC does nothing.

And Piling-On still leave the player Prone when he uses it, so he can be fouled if your opponent wants too. And the fact hes prone means he cant Block the following turn and doesnt have a TZ... which makes him far less useful than a player that does the job standing.

---Korhil

Mr. Sanity · Post by **Mr. Sanity** » Mon Oct 21, 2002 7:20 pm

RE: fouling a PO player
Well, fouling a PO player is a risky proposition. There are 2 risks associated with it: 1) You foul and get ejected, and 2) You foul, and don't break armor. If #2 happens, and the coach has nothing better to do with his blitz, he can blitz the fouling player and subsequently PO him. Talk about a plan backfiring...

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:22 am

Korhil wrote:Stuns win games. ... And Piling-On still leave the player Prone when he uses it, so he can be fouled if your opponent wants too.
---Korhil

But you've guaranteed at least a stun by using PO - so 1 player less each - and you've got a very good chance with RSF to get a KO or cas too.

The other thing is that with the IGEMOY rule its useful to tempt your opponent into making fouls. By letting them foul your opponent you move the marker and free yourself up to make a foul in return. Against opponents with lower Av (anyone apart from Orcs & Dwarves) this should help you win the numbers game.

I'm not arguing that PO is the best skill - and Claw/RSF is a better combo - If you take RSF on a 1st double and then get a 2nd double take Claw, but if you don't get the 2nd double take PO and you have a casualty machine.

Ian

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 6:38 pm

I just need something cleared up.... Piling on and RSC both modifies the same roll.... is this possible due to the fact that the RSC is not a skill, but in fact a mutation?

I know MB and PO won't work together, so does PO and RSC work because it is just one skill? If this is the case then I see the benefit..... +6 with a CW....

Khrage · Post by **Khrage** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 6:45 pm

Piling on affects armor rolls, RSF affects injury rolls. Two different rolls.
Piling on and Claw couldn't both affect the same armor roll though. No two skills/traits can modify a single die roll.

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 7:30 pm

Ahhh....you're right... must be tired. Had a very frustrating match tonight. Started two turns by rolling snake eyes.... and saw my 3-1 lead evaporate...

Never had so much bad luck in a single half before.... even had three of my player KO'ed in three succesive blocks.

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:29 pm

Well, well, well.....one of my friends just said that Chaos is boring to play and thus I think this is the perfect time to take them out of retirement and start a new team with the new rules.
Our league starts in less than a month and though I would have taken High Elves I've promised a friend that he can borrow them and use them as Wood Elves. Now I just have to get the team painted and a few beastmen converted to function as BB players as I'm a little short in that department.
The first time around I went with four CW, but now I'm wiser and more experienced so I'll keep it to one CW and 10 beastmen....the same as in Balrogs original post. Time to put my coaching skills to the test....oh...and get the figs repainted as my painting skills have increased quite a bit in the last four or five years.

Let's go for Slaanesh!

BobbyDavro · Post by **BobbyDavro** » Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:45 am

I am about to start playing in a league with my first Chaos team. I thought that playing in the spirit of Chaos, I would pick the following team:

1 Ogre
3 Chaos Warriors
7 Beastmen
9 FF
1 RR

This gives a massively front-loaded powerful team - about as good as it gets - while setting the team up well for getting some cash to buy more RR and an apothecary.

It is a risky strategy of course, but isn't that the fun of Chaos? I am working on the principle of getting more firepower up front to cripple the opposition front line asap.

I don't much like the fact that Beastmen are (to start with) just expensive human linemen... except for one of them who can blitz (if I don't need that for another player!). Hence I want to take advantage of the other players available right from the start.

As I see it, the problem with starting a Chaos team with 10+ beastmen is that there are no heavyweights in the team, which wastes the potential of CW to do some serious damage. You end up with a team of expensive mediocre players.

I also think that spending money on those hideously expensive RRs is really not taking advantage of the Chaos strengths and instead seems to be a tactic of damage limitation by reducing the effect of a lack of any skills.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:49 am

Take one reroll and find out you can't play the ball at all and double skull or both down will cause turnover over turnover.

Good luck though.

Khrage · Post by **Khrage** » Tue Nov 12, 2002 4:34 am

Bobby, I don't think you are fully appreciating the beauty that is the beastman. For a mere 10k over the cost of a human lineman you get a blitzer. Granted the blitzer doesn't have block, but he does have Horns, and a 4 st on a blitz is only a minor thing on a chaos team..any other team would love to have it. The beastman is average Ag, Av, Mv, and Str, sure. But what other lineman has access to 3 skill catagories of upgrade? Yes physical is only usefull on a double roll, but when you get them, Damn! With there average abilities, all of them are threats to score, blitz, pass, catch, and foul. Think about trying to defend against that...

I agree with Grumble...one reroll is going to be painful over the course of a season.

I do see the attraction of the front loaded chaos team though. Being able to field that much pain is seductive. But I plan on using Balrog's suggestion the next time I field a Chaos team.

BobbyDavro · Post by **BobbyDavro** » Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:48 pm

My problem with the beastmen is that you get just one decent blitzer. If you buy 10 beastmen you are paying an extra $100,000 for the ability to give just one of them a +1 str. It seems like the more of them you buy, the more money you are chucking away, and you o have very limited funds to start the league with. I just want every gold piece to count right from the start.

If you want all those average players, then why not play a human team, and get them cheaper?

While their increased access to upgrades is great, that is very much a long term factor. For the first couple of games, it is hardly a consideration - surely if you are just buying 11 players, you will want the best possible 11?

I do appreciate the pain of the single reroll as well. However, given the cost of the reroll, is JJ not actually intending the Chaos team to be played with less rerolls? It seems to me that some of you are rather expecting that bad luck. Doesn't sound like you have much faith in the Chaos gods to protect your dice rolls

But seriously, do you not find that playing with 10 beastmen effectively makes your team worse than every other team to begin with? You have no specialist players; just a bunch of linemen. No ball handling, no great offensive players.. what is the strength of a Chaos beastman team?

To make my point, if you went up against a human team to begin with, all of their linemen are $10,000 cheaper, and their re-rolls are $20,000 cheaper. Plus, they have throwers, catchers and blitzers. With skills.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:15 pm

The advatage with beastmen is that all of them can blitz with strength 4, this means that you don't have to worry about having to have your blitzer in a good position to make the blitz you need, you can just use any of them. Also having access to strength skills and physical abilities is worth the extra cost compared to a human lineman. Its all down to personal choice, on the starting roster, but i wouldn't say the extra money for the beatman is a waste. Most teams have a line of scrimmage of str3 players anyway, so your not at a disadvantage.

As for the rerolls undeads are 70k as well and i start with 3 rerolls and i have payers with skills as well. At the spiky tournament i took 4 rerolls and i still found my self wanting more. Bad dice rolls are a certainty, maybe your just gifted ;]

Piepgrass · Post by **Piepgrass** » Tue Nov 12, 2002 2:55 pm

BobbyDavro wrote:To make my point, if you went up against a human team to begin with, all of their linemen are $10,000 cheaper, and their re-rolls are $20,000 cheaper. Plus, they have throwers, catchers and blitzers. With skills.

But they dont have the power of the Dark Side.