QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016 - Cancelled

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Dionysian
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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by Dionysian »

Loki wrote:... to allow diversity in tournaments without being overly authoritarian?
I don't think that 'diversity' is a particularly strong argument for sanctioning tournaments that crown winners with inferior records. There is near infinite room for diversity in rulespacks even with a standardised 2/1/0 SoS scoring system. Enshrining WDL is a long way short of such a standardised system. It allows one to stretch the WDL ratio (to 3/1/0 for example) and any form of tiebreaker (even ones used during the Swiss). The range of possible 'diversity' is astonishing. Exiles rulespacks are the ones I usually point people to illustrate this point.

Authoritarian also feels misleading. A TO can obviously do whatever he pleases with his own tournament, but likewise the NAF is clearly free to define a minimum competitive standard (such as ensuring a superior record always triumphs over a lesser one) in respect to scoring systems for eligibility to give away one of their 'coveted' NAF trophies. If a TO doesn't want to meet that standard for whatever reason, then that's his choice too.

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by Hobnail »

There is a perfectly simple workaround to ruin this rubbish: 50% of us concede game 1 and the other 50% concede game 2.
Noone is entered into the raffle, problem solved.

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by Dionysian »

Loki wrote: I think the diversity should be recognised and included, don't start at a point of 'No' which sets the NAF up as repressive. I would like to see the NAF guiding and supporting rather than policing and repressing.
Is it safe to assume that you're fine with Quidditch awarding a NAF trophy then?

If the TO thinks his rulespack is good and insists on it then what is the NTO supposed to do without a minimum standard to which he can refer? For example, no I wouldn't personally sanction the BUBBA scoring system as the 4 pt gap between a draw and loss is far too easy to overcome with 20 bonus points on offer throughout the tournament. Which suggests you value draws (and 1-1 is arguably the most natural result) very lowly for some reason. I would suggest that you increase the draw points as you did the win points. An obvious problem with not doing so is that it's easy to imagine two coaches on 3-0-0 fighting out a tough draw to finish on 3-1-0, while someone who lost the first game plays stunty teams in games 2 and 3, wins game 4 and overtakes both top table players to win the tournament on 3-0-1.

However I'm sure you would argue that it should be sanctioned as is. So should Quidditch also be 'guided and supported' and then sanctioned as is because I've thought about it a lot and am happy with the WDL-breaking consequences? Perhaps when people complain I should just respond with 'don't police or repress me'?

Guidance and support is obviously a good first step, but it's clearly not repressive for an organisation to define a minimum standard for its sanctioning.

If one thinks a minimum competitive standard is unnecessary because it's 'just a game and the trophies don't matter' then Quidditch is completely fine as is. If one thinks regulation of scoring systems is unnecessary because a TO should be able to use any scoring system he likes and still be eligible for a NAF trophy (as some people were arguing in the other thread pre-QuidditchBowl), then, once again, Quidditch awarding a trophy should be fine.

Some people (not necessarily you), seem to be trying to simultaneously hold the opinions that regulation of scoring systems isn't needed, but that QuidditchBowl somehow shouldn't be allowed to award a NAF trophy. Such a high degree of cognitive dissonance can't be comfortable. It's one or the other (because Quidditch will have fully met the current criteria for trophy eligibility if it gets 12 participants).

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by Loki »

That argument works both ways, the NAF is just as free to not put restrictions to inclusion up and let the community 'vote with their feet'. Surely if the majority want tournaments with a strict W/D/L environment then those which have a more varied landscape will dwindle for at least become niche and therefore fall below the existing number criteria associated with the NAF trophy.

I'm not say Quidditch shouldn't get a trophy because of the scoring system but because you are making a political point not running a tournament solely on it's own merits. You have set the rules pack to provoke a reaction.

As I said up front you are creating a fallacious argument to support your position, the only person deliberately try to create a 'random' winner is you. Others may be misunderstanding the outcomes of decisions or accidentally creating the situation where a lesser WDL triumphs over a better one but you are trying to highlight the inadaquaces in a system by deliberately setting up a duality of either you let my broken tournament go or your system is completely broken.

As it stands at the moment you can't award a NAF trophy, you do not meet the numbers criteria so the argument about awarding a trophy is slightly mute until you get the 12 people to pay and stay to support your personal war on Bonus Points.

Regarding BUBBA, the points are there to promote going for the win hence the premium. The bonus points are for attaining td's or CAS above the norm. Yes, this could happen by luck but hopefully more often a coach at 2-1 has to make to the choice do I go for 3-1 and gain a BP and risk giving the ball back to his opponent rather than stall out.

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by Hobnail »

Is there a sign up thread for Bubba 2017 yet? ;)

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by Dionysian »

Loki wrote:then those which have a more varied landscape
The additional tournaments that make up this 'more varied landscape' consist solely of those that use bonus points as tournament points in ratios high enough break WDL. Everything else was already included. Given how simple it is for TOs to enshrine WDL while maintaining every other deliberate consequence and induced bias (racial and playstyle) in their scoring system there is just no real need for non-WDL systems to exist.
Loki wrote: a duality of either you let my broken tournament go or your system is completely broken.
You think my tournament is broken. I think yours is just as broken when it comes to protecting and respecting competitive play. The system is broken.
Loki wrote: I'm not say Quidditch shouldn't get a trophy because of the scoring system but because you are making a political point not running a tournament solely on it's own merits.
Then you've been operating under a misapprehension.

It's true that I would prefer minimum competitive standards set by the governing body so that the NAF trophy means something and the tournament circuit is sufficiently competitive to provide a satisfying experience - and far from being anti-fun, healthy and fair competition actually enhances the social aspect of tournaments that we all agree is paramount.

However, failing that, playing at QuidditchBowl under the current ruleset seems far more preferable to me than playing in any other non-standard scoring system simply because the 6 games themselves are more likely to be of high quality rather than being marred by opponents playing badly while going for bonus points.

As this consequence of Quidditch scoring also leads to more accuracy in NAF rankings I'd argue that the system already has more merit in some ways than any heavy bonus point tournament.
Loki wrote:Regarding BUBBA, the points are there to promote going for the win hence the premium.
Exiles and the Welsh Open both promote going for the win over the draw, but without breaking WDL. Bubba points go much further than this in reducing the value of a draw.
Loki wrote: accidentally creating the situation where a lesser WDL triumphs over a better one
3-0-1 is a lesser WDL than 3-1-0. The lack of protection for the latter in your system doesn't seem particularly accidental given your explanation of the reasons behind it.
Loki wrote: As it stands at the moment you can't award a NAF trophy, you do not meet the numbers criteria so the argument about awarding a trophy is slightly mute until you get the 14 people to pay and stay to support your personal war on Bonus Points.
12 people. I'll get them. Easily.

If you think it's a personal war you haven't been paying attention.

Bonus-Points-As-Tournament-Points-In-High-Ratios. Trying to lump in bonus point systems that break WDL with ones that don't and calling them all 'bonus points' is a large part of why so many people didn't realise there was a problem. Ones that don't break WDL are just tiebreakers applied during the Swiss.

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by Hobnail »

Spence, why dont you shut up whining, take peoples money, run your tournament and stop going to ones where you dont like the rules set?

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by Loki »

Where would be the fun in that.

Spence has convinced me that next years BUBBA points will be based solely on the quality, quantity and temperature of the beverages attendees give the TO.

Spence when you run your tournament come back and talk to me.

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by Dionysian »

Hobnail wrote:why dont you ...stop going to ones where you dont like the rules set?
...and with that we've timewarped back to Tuesday and a different thread.

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by Hobnail »

I made four points, not one.

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by nightwing »

Loki wrote:Where would be the fun in that.

Spence has convinced me that next years BUBBA points will be based solely on the quality, quantity and temperature of the beverages attendees give the TO.

Spence when you run your tournament come back and talk to me.
Dave, sign me up for BUBBA 2017 right now. I'll make sure to source several tons of top quality South American coffee beans in advance :D

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by lunchmoney »

nightwing wrote:
Dave, sign me up for BUBBA 2017 right now. I'll make sure to source several tons of top quality South American coffee beans in advance :D
That's my level of bribe :)

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by Darkson »

Hmm, keep the primacy of w/d/l - maybe something like 0/1/2 so that an ARBBLer can actually finish in the top half for once. ;)


Though in all seriousness, this constant moaning about scoring systems is making me question whether I'm going to bother continuing to run BB events next year (the P'n'M for this year is safe). I'm going to be attending my first Guildball tournament later this year (name already on the spoon) and I'll be interested to see if there's the same level of bitching under those rules.
I am firmly in the "if you don't like the rules, don't go" camp - I missed 3 or 4 years of the ACC because I didn't like the progression format (wrongly as it turned out). If you don't like it, don't go; if you decide to go, you've agreed to the rules.

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by Dionysian »

Darkson wrote: I am firmly in the "if you don't like the rules, don't go" camp - I missed 3 or 4 years of the ACC because I didn't like the progression format (wrongly as it turned out). If you don't like it, don't go; if you decide to go, you've agreed to the rules.
This is a perfectly legitimate alternative to having minimum competitive standards. However, if this is the direction the community truly wants to go in then it applies equally to QuidditchBowl and to any other tournament that may pop up in the future (such as ConcessionBowl or the HyperBowl series). If you don't like QuidditchBowl 'vote with your feet/wallet' and don't come, but don't complain about its existence either.

Surely I don't need to point out the hypocrisy in people coming into a QuidditchBowl thread and bitching about the scoring system while also getting irate when their tournament's scoring system is called into question?

Everything that can be said by both sides of this has been said many times over, so this is my last post on Quidditch (or any scoring system) until after the NAFC (where anyone who has had their Jimmies rustled by all this can have a beer on me). It's going to take the NAF a while to decide if they think NAF events need minimum scoring system standards or not. Honestly, I'm fine either way as long as we're all honest about whether we want our events to crown the correct winner or if it just doesn't matter.

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Re: QuidditchBowl I, Cardiff, Sept 24/25 2016

Post by Darkson »

Dionysian wrote:Surely I don't need to point out the hypocrisy in people coming into a QuidditchBowl thread and bitching about the scoring system while also getting irate when their tournament's scoring system is called into question?
Hope that's not aimed at me, as I would be interested in coming if not for the reasons I posted earlier, and I haven't complained once about the scoring.

Honestly, I'm fine either way as long as we're all honest about whether we want our events to crown the correct winner or if it just doesn't matter.
Surely the correct winner is the one that scores the most points under the rules of that tournament?

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