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 Post subject: Brand New High Elf coach... skill progression advice please
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:12 am 
Rookie
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Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:46 am
Posts: 37
Just about to start a new season with the New Avelorn Saints (black and gold looks good) but ive never played an AG team before, only started the game in late 16' and only had one team - Orcland Raiders (keeping the NFL theme going). Good team to learn the game with, but after caging and bashing my way around the field im looking forward to a more 'sophisticated' style of play with my HElves... or that's the idea anyway.

My starting line up is - 990k
Thrower
Lineman x6
Blitzer x2
Catcher x2
Re-rolls x2

Theres a good mix of teams in the league ill be playing in, Goblins, Halflings, Necromancer, Humans, Dwarfs and Slann, with max 10 games being played inc. playoffs.

The AG skills are (mostly) new to me having not thought about them much with Orcs, hoping to gain some advice on how to maximise the passing/catching game in a relatively short season.

Cheers!


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 Post subject: Re: Brand New High Elf coach... skill progression advice ple
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:20 pm 
Super Star
Super Star

Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 10:38 am
Posts: 983
Location: Paradise Stadium, where the pitch is green and the cheerleaders are pretty.
Your lineup is in my opinion the correct one. I've done that, and in a different league I tried "two blitzers, one thrower, 8 linemen". Starting with catchers is better, they're the long-term stars of your team and not as fast to skill up as everyone assumes.

As for the Agility skills, Dodge is always your friend. Even with Dwarves in your league. Dodge is almost always the first skill on my catchers, the best skill on blitzers. On linemen, I get dodge on half of them and Wrestle or Block on some. Use the dodgers to run in wherever you need assists, block with the Blockers and Wrestlers.

Once your position players have Dodge, you can start worrying about specializing. You'll need some Tackle, especially in your league. Sidestep is fantastic, especially as some of your opponents start with Frenzy. Leap is nice, I guess, but it's a reroll shredder and can be risky. Strip Ball is good, even against teams with Sure Hands it limits what your opponent can do (in particular it'll prevent the Human player from getting cute and carrying the ball with his blitzers).
Once you play against the Slann in your league, you'll develop an appreciation for Jump Up, Diving Tackle, Diving Catch ... all fun choices, none are top two or even top three upgrades.

I've seen some guides which say "get a kicker on the first lineman to skill up". I've done this, but I don't feel like I've gotten enough value out of it. Certainly not worth giving up another Blocker or Dodger.

Thrower depends on your style. I like for mine to sit right in front of my own end zone, looking vulnerable and (hopefully) getting 2-3 opposing players rushing at him ... then he peels out, tosses the ball up to a catcher at Midfield, and I try to run behind the defense.
For this, Accurate is the best skill, and Strong Arm/+AG if you're lucky/super lucky. Dodge helps too, people try to tag him up sometimes.
I should point out that this tactic is awesome when it works, especially against the slower teams in your league. But snake eyes means "oppo TD".
I've seen a leaguemate essentially ignore his thrower, getting Leader, Block, Kick, and treating him as a more expensive lineman.

Good Luck! High Elves are fun. Oh yeah, the other advice I can give you is to get used to playing while outnumbered, and don't let injuries irritate you. AV8 is SO MUCH WEAKER than the AV9 you're used to with Orcs. And you start with only 2 Blockers and no Dodgers. You WILL get pounded, over and over. At least your journeymen are good value. -MA, -AG, even Niggling or -AV players go on the line to get their faces pounded by Dwarves. Same with Journeymen. Replace them when you can afford it, but accept that it might take a while.

_________________
"It's 2+ and I have a reroll. Chill out. I've got this!"
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 Post subject: Re: Brand New High Elf coach... skill progression advice ple
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:44 pm 
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:46 am
Posts: 37
Thanks for the advice rolo, plenty for me to go on there.

Took your advice and took Dodge on my first skill up for my Catcher.

Cheers!


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 Post subject: Re: Brand New High Elf coach... skill progression advice ple
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:51 pm 
Super Star
Super Star

Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 10:38 am
Posts: 983
Location: Paradise Stadium, where the pitch is green and the cheerleaders are pretty.
Good luck!!

_________________
"It's 2+ and I have a reroll. Chill out. I've got this!"
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 Post subject: Re: Brand New High Elf coach... skill progression advice ple
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:42 pm 
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:46 am
Posts: 37
Elves on the defence...

As ive only two players with the BLOCK skill ive been cautious of 'marking' opposition players, as when I have tried it even a 1 dice block seems to be taking me off the pitch (only played two games with HElves and think ive lost 5 players this way, thankfully to nothing more than KOd but still off the pitch).

Should I been 'screening' only on defence? keeping the opposition limited to only a Blitz each turn? Ive tried this tactic too and when im having to Dodge away (even on a 2+) im failing.

Honestly speaking ive been seriously unlucky with my dice rolls but, im still learning the Elven way.

How do you set up on defence with the pointy eared ones?


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 Post subject: Re: Brand New High Elf coach... skill progression advice ple
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:43 pm 
Super Star
Super Star

Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 10:38 am
Posts: 983
Location: Paradise Stadium, where the pitch is green and the cheerleaders are pretty.
Disclaimer: I'm not exactly the greatest or most successful High Elf coach out there.

But since I'm the one answering, here are my thoughts:

First, before you even set up a single figure on defense, you need to ask yourself some questions:
1) Do you need to take the ball away from your opponent and score from defense? Or is it enough to just stop them from scoring?
2) How quickly are you expecting your opponent to try to score? Are you defending the 2-turner or a long grind?

Either way, any discussion of defense you hear is going to talk about the "Double Rows" formation. That means columns of two players, one behind the other, each spaced two apart from each other. Like this:
Code:
-----------------------------
. . . .|. . . . . . .|. . . .
. x . .|x . . x . . .|. . . .
. x . .|x . . x . . .|. . . .
. . . .|. . . . . . .|. . . .
. . . .|. . . . . . .|. . . .


Those six players have locked down your whole left side. Your opponent won't be able to get through that without some super lucky dodges, stunty, Leap, or some other similar stunt. (Slann will laugh at you, of course).
It takes 10 players to wall off the whole field that way, so it's not workable as an initial setup, rather as a goal for how your defense should look on turn 2, 3, etc ...

IF you just need to stop your opponent from scoring:
Wall off the field. Start off with most of that column formation built up, put some dodgers on the line*, like this:
Code:
-----------------------------
. . . .|. d . d . d .|. . . .
. . . .|. . . . . . .|. . . .
. x . .|x . . . . . x|. . x .
. x . .|x . . . . . x|. . x .
. . . .|. . . . . . .|. . . .

* - don't put dodgers on the front line against Dwarves or any team with a lot of tackle.

They'll knock down your front line, but hopefully two will be able to dodge out and complete the formation:
Code:
-----------------------------
. . . .|. . . . . . .|. . . .
. . . .|. . . . . . .|. . . .
. x . .|x . . d . . x|. . x .
. x . .|x . . d . . x|. . x .
. . . .|. . . . . . .|. . . .


What happens next depends on your opponent. Some will try to run up and tag your formation; block/blitz them down every round if possible, or dodge one square backwards otherwise. Some will try to blitz one player per turn and then run away, just reposition whenever possible.

Just remember:
- This is problematic against a team with Frenzy, your opponent will try to crowd surf your players off the sidelines. Sidestep counters that nonsense, so the top left and top right players there should be sidestep Blitzers if you have them.
- This won't stop the Slann offense. The only thing that can stop the Slann offense is the Slann coach running out of rerolls.
- Your opponent will complain that this is "boring" or "lame". That's a compliment, it's code for "I expected to be able to easily run up the score and farm a lot of star player points, stop playing defense and let me score already!!".
- The other downside is that you'll play some low scoring games. But right now I'm assuming you're trying to win first, farm star player points second.

If you need to score from defense:
This is hard and is probably going to hurt. But it's awesome when it works.

The easiest way to score from defense is to kick deep (Kick helps), roll Blitz! or hope for an early turnover, run behind the opponent's front line, grab the ball, score. Easy. That takes a lot of luck, and you have to assume that your opponent will get the ball safe in a cage.
Cage-breaking takes commitment and you're going to get blocked.

If your opponent's cage looks like this: (o=opponent, b=ball carrier)
Code:
-----------------------------
. . . .|. o . o . . .|. . . .
. . . .|o . b . . . .|. . . .
. . . .|. o . o . . o|. . o .
. . . .|. . . . . . .|. . . .
. . . .|. . . . . . .|. . . .


Build your "colums" in front of whichever side your opponent is going up, and blitz a cage corner, tag up the rest of the cage:
Code:
-----------------------------
. . . .|. o . o . . .|. . . .
. . . x|o . b . . . .|. . . .
. . . x|. x o o . . o|. . o .
. . . .|. x . . . . .|. . . .
. . . .|. . . x . . x|. . x .
. . . .|. . . x . . x|. . x .


You've got a player on his ball carrier, all that your opponent can do is try to block or blitz you away. He won't be able to free up his cage entirely, and you'll be able to block down a corner and blitz the Ball Carrier. Then just pick up the ball and score ...
Key skills:
Strip Ball, Tackle, Sidestep, Block/Dodge.

_________________
"It's 2+ and I have a reroll. Chill out. I've got this!"
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 Post subject: Re: Brand New High Elf coach... skill progression advice ple
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:46 pm 
Emerging Star
Emerging Star

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:21 pm
Posts: 428
There are 2 skills of thought when skilling high elves.

The first is spamming block then dodge, then block, then dodge and so on.

the other is more subtle. Dodge, then block, then dodge and block.

It's a pretty controversial subject and you're either one side of the fence or the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Brand New High Elf coach... skill progression advice ple
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:06 am 
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:46 am
Posts: 37
Once again cheers for the help rolo, some detail in that so I appreciate you taking the time to put all that down.


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 Post subject: Re: Brand New High Elf coach... skill progression advice ple
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:08 am 
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:46 am
Posts: 37
harvestmouse wrote:
There are 2 skills of thought when skilling high elves.

The first is spamming block then dodge, then block, then dodge and so on.

the other is more subtle. Dodge, then block, then dodge and block.

It's a pretty controversial subject and you're either one side of the fence or the other.



I had hoped (probably quite naively) that my HElves wouldn't be using the more obvious skills of BLOCK/DODGE and going a different route... you are completely right tho, without that base of skills ill be struggling, as is the case...


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 Post subject: Re: Brand New High Elf coach... skill progression advice ple
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:42 pm 
Emerging Star
Emerging Star

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:21 pm
Posts: 428
Elves are not an easy race to play due to the lack turnover saving skills. So, especially if you are new ; keep it simple.

Blodge skills might not always be the best choices.........however they'll never be a bad choice.


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