Thrown Teammate Defense

[Matsu]

We've got 2-3 coaches in our league using this tactic to do 'unstoppable' single-turn scores, and I wanted to get some opinions on the best tactics to slow this down. Obviously, they need to make a bunch of rolls successfully to do this, but if they get an AG 4 stunty their chances improve dramatically.

They basically use a formation such as:

____|_______|____
_P__|___P___|__P_
____|_______|____
____|_______|____
____|_______|____
____|_______|____
____|___P___|___ _
____|_______|____
____|_______|____
____|___s___|____
____|___T___|____
_P__|_______|__P_
____|B__B__B|____

P= player
B = Blocker type
T = Thrower (big guy)
s = Stunty

The 'P' players pick up the ball and hand off to the stunty. The Big Guy throws the stunty as deep as he can into my territory, and the stunty dodges into the endzone.

Now, this requires a certain number of rolls to all go correctly, but it's not THAT tough:
1. Pick up the ball
2. (possible) pushes to get next to the stunty
3. stunty catches the ball (stunty AG)
4. Throw teammate pass roll - play can still succeed as long as you don't drop him.
4.5. (if the throw is inaccurate, hope he doesn't scatter out of bounds).
5. Land safely (stunty AG)
6. Dodge through possible tacklezones. (stunty AG, dodge skill, stunty skill)

So far, the best defense I've come up with to defend against this is a deep zone is below. It's painful to give up so much space up front, and to leave my linemen so exposed, but you have to be able to defend against this strategy.

____|_L_L_L_|____
____|_______|____
____|_______|____
____|_______|____
____|_______|____
xx__|P_____P|__xx
__xx|x__P__x|xx__
_P__|_xxxxx_|__P_
____|T_____T|____
____|___T___|____
____|_______|____
____|_______|____
____|_______|____

L = my linemen
P = my other players
T = Tacklers and diving tacklers, if available.
x = The longest range available (if thrower is in standard 3rd rank.

I'm trying to put as many tacklezones as possible around the landing area, and just past it to make the landing and dodging past as difficult as possible. Obviously if the stunty has AG bonuses, this is only marginally useful.

I also use kick to try to place it as far away from the stunty as possible (force extra GFIs). Obviously, you pound the stunty in the dirt if he doesn't make it, and blitz the Big Guy if they don't throw on the first turn. Any other strategies you can think of?
[/b]

[ZanzerTem]

I just line up a straight line of players in the backfield, ensuring that they are within movement range to reach the LOS in one turn. Occasionally, you will see the gobbo scatter onto one of your players, causing a turnover (and pain for your player )

[Thetian]

I hope the rest of my regular opponents don't read this. I'll never score with my flings again!

One opponent regularly leaves his 3 biggest smashy players on the LOS, 7 players 5 squares from the endzone evenly spaced across the pitch, and a player with tackle 2 squares in front of that.

The result is my stunty having to make 3 or 4 dodges to slip past his defense. This is his favorite tactic if one of my treemen doesn't show for the first half. If both treemen are there he only does this if the score is tied and he needs to deny me the one-tuirn TD.

If I opt not to fling a fling, he simply moves up and pounds the rest of flings into the turf. Of course I get to swarm his smashy players and foul them, but I rarely take one out.
[/code]

[Smeborg]

There are 7 or 8 rookie teams that can score in one turn, either by chucking a Stunty, or by indirectly pushing an MA8/9 player forwards until he can score on his own. The sides are:

Woodies
Skaven
Lizzies
Humies
High Elves
Gobbos (with Big Guy)
'Flings (with Big Guy)
Orcs (with Big Guy and Gobbo)
(Chaos, if Star Players are allowed - Big Guy plus Scrappa)

I believe the best defence (in theory at least) against both types of one-turn-score is as follows:

-Set up 8 players deep in your backfield, 2 squares in front of your end zone, with one square between each player (i.e. the two wide players are next to the touch lines). This way, any AG4 player trying to dodge through needs to make three dodges at 4+, 3+ and 2+ (unless they have AG3 and Stunty, in which case it's 3+, 3+, 3+). Any AG3 player without Stunty needs 5+, 4+, 3+. If four or more of your players have Tackle (e.g. Longbeards or Chaos Dwarfs), then alternate them in the backfield set-up, making the defence much stronger (by preventing Dodge from being used on the second highest risk dodge roll).

- In any case, set up only 3 players on the line of scrimmage (I think they're best placed with 2 squares between each of them). Not only do you need 8 men in your backfield (see above), but against a push-type one-turn-score, if you set up any more than 3 men on or near the line of scrimmage, you help your opponent (by closing avenues of retreat, you make it easier for him to push his scorer forwards).

- Believe it or not, when defending against the push-type one-turn-score, it can help slightly if the 3 defenders on the line of scrimmage do not have Block or Dodge, and have low armour. This is because you want your defenders to fall down (e.g. on a both down or POW/! result) so that they can't be pushed a second or third time (at the least you may force your opponent to use his precious Re-roll on the block). Also, if a defender does fall down (except on the last block), you may want him to become a Casualty or be K.O.d (so that he can't help your opponent by blocking an avenue of retreat). For obvious reasons, Tackle and high ST (5+) also help on the line of scrimmage.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Zombie]

You forgot dark elves. It can be done with MA7 and frenzy.

[Mortalman]

Regarding the use of pushbacks on your own players to gain extra M and score in a turn, I have to say I would never do this! I don't have a problem with a one-turn score for the teams that can do it, but I feel blocking your own players is not really in the spirit of the game. Other people may have a different opinion which I respect, but I just wouldn't do it.

[Grumbledook]

You don't block your own players, its against the rules in the first place.

You block opposing players and using secondary pushback results you can push your own players forward a couple of squares to get in 1 turn range.

[DoubleSkulls]

The best defence against the "pushback" one turner is not to sit back, but to deny space and angles on the LOS.

Basically by making the initial blocks harder (i.e. preventing 3 or even 2 dice blocks) you significantly reduce the odds of it working. Pulling everyone back just makes the initial blocks easier and doesn't improve your odds of stopping the leap/dodge.

e.g.

Code: Select all

____|_X_X_X_|____
____|X_____X|____
___X|__X_X__|X___
_X__|_______|__X_

[Smeborg]

Hi, Ian - good contribution.

You may be right, but then again, you may not! And I may well be wrong, but I'm not sure yet! Assuming the offensive coach has enough time to work things out, it has always seemed to me that the more men that the defence puts on or near the line of scrimmage, the more (potentially) that it helps the offence (especially if the offence is MA8, rather than MA9). You can always block some of the defenders to push them around (or knock them over) before you start the main play. I'm not sure your defence would work well against Leap or Stunty (but it might work OK against some sides).

My perspective on the "best" defence is that I needed to prepare a defence against this tactic for The BloodBowl. The set-up that I came up with is one that seems to work well for the team that I took to the tournament (Chaos Dwarfs) against the sides most likely to use the tactic effectively in practice (Woodies and Skaven). As it happened, only one of my opponents had a chance to do a last turn score (with Lizzies), and he seemed to be unaware of the tactic (and no doubt bemused by my set-up!).

I guess we are dealing with a somewhat arcane part of Blood Bowl, but one with relevance to tournament play (developed sides in a league are likely to be much better at one turn scoring than rookie sides). The odds of success seem to be below 20% for all sides except Woodies (mainly because of Leap, but also because Leap is combined with AG4, Catch, Dodge and MA9). Skaven are quite good at the tactic (MA9, Dodge, AG4), but so are the MA8 Lizzies (because of Stunty). Humies are not bad, despite the AG3 and MA8 (because of Catch and Dodge). Because the odds are low, and occurrences rare, it seems quite difficult to compare tactics accurately (whether for the offence or defence). And by the end of a tournament like the BB, coaches could equip their sides with relevant one turn scoring skills, making the equation yet more complicated.

Perhaps there is no universal defence against this tactic (which would in itself be further proof of the chess-like beauty of Blood Bowl). Maybe it depends which side you have in defence (e.g. with or without Tackle), and who is attacking (MA8 or MA9, Leap, Stunty, etc.).

I'd love to see some more favourite defences from coaches out there, if only to see how different they are from mine and Ian's.

Cheers

[Zombie]

You keep ignoring MA7 + frenzy as if they couldn't do it. Take notice of them before it's too late!

[Grumbledook]

how does having frenzy help, not like is gives you extra movement is it, or am i missing something?

[Zombie]

It ain't the guy with the ball who needs frenzy, but the one making the last block, so that he can push him twice instead of just once.

[Grumbledook]

ah right i misunderstood you then ;]

a player with move 7 who has a team mate with frenzy

[Smeborg]

First prize goes to...

...the coach who works out how to do it with Dwarfs (MA6, 2 players with Frenzy).

I have difficulty seeing how (in practice, OK in theory) you can do it with MA7 and team-mate(s) with Frenzy, but I'll certainly have a look when I have time.

Cheers

[Zombie]

Keep your price and stop looking, it's impossible. Frenzy only works on the last block, and is useless otherwise. If you want a diagram that shows how to do it with MA7 and frenzy, i have an excel spreadsheet i created that shows how to do it in 10 easy steps! Give me your email and it's yours.