Slann for world cup

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Omalley69
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Slann for world cup

Post by Omalley69 »

Show me what you got! :D

Ive been playing with slann lately (mainly because i received the fanath frog team).
How whould you build a Frog world cup roster?
Block froxigor, wrestle strip ball catcher, guard catcher, block/wrestle gallore?

Im not getting all that much value from my guard froxigore on bb2. (12-15 games so far)
are skilled blitzers more valuable? froxigore more needed against bashy opponents?

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Re: Slann for world cup

Post by sann0638 »

5 or 6 teams here from UK Team Championship: https://public.tableau.com/shared/ZGZPG ... _count=yes

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Re: Slann for world cup

Post by rolo »

I played the FumBBL tournament with 4 Catchers, Krox, 7 Linemen, 3 Rerolls.
Linefrogs get 1x Strip Ball and a bunch of Wrestle (Stripper stacks Wrestle on day 2).
Catchers get 1x Guard and the others get dodge.

This was more or less effective. The Kroxigor, like many Big Guys, is volatile. Sometimes he's a game-saver, removing opponents, forcing rerolls and turnovers with Prehensile Tail. Sometimes Bonehead and Loner cost you.
I'm considering trading him and a lineman in for two Blitzers. I think I'd go with one Guard and one Wrestle Blitzer. More testing is needed and I intend to do so. (I also intend to finish painting my team so I can take them to tournaments and practice!!)

At some point Smeborg is going to reply to this post and recommend 4 Catchers, 8 Linefrogs, 5 Rerolls. He's a much more experienced Slann coach than I am, so he's probably right. I *think* Blitzers are "worth" their cost (they're essentially a Linefrog plus a Reroll each), because with Jump Up and higher movement, they might save rerolls by rolling fewer GFI's. Plus they let you stack more Guard into the team. And they're dangerous even when they fail a Leap, since they can block from the ground with Jump Up.
I'll let you know when I get around to trying it out.

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Omalley69
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Re: Slann for world cup

Post by Omalley69 »

Hmm 4 catchers 8 linefrogs sounds like hardmode.
Isnt offence going to be hard with no muscle and some what low movement?
Comparing to elfs/brettons in the sence that its a str 3 team but cant dodge to line up assists and dont have easy guard like brettons yeomen.

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Re: Slann for world cup

Post by rolo »

Offense isn't going to be easy, but the Krox and Blitzers don't always make it much easier. Slann are pretty unique, so you can't really compare tactics with more conventional races. On offense, catchers handle most of your ball carrying (and will usually have Dodge). You don't necessarily need to stall out. So it's not that hard to get a situation where you're a couple 2+ rolls away from scoring. At least if you haven't taken too much attrition.

The reason you don't need to worry about stalling is that the team is built for defense. You can have a Guard catcher, everyone else can leap on a 3+, and the idea is to have lots of Wrestle and Strip Ball, and literally blitz the ball carrier with 1 or 2 dice every single turn. It's quite stressful to be on the receiving end of that and since Slann are a pretty rare team, some coaches can't really deal with it and panic.

That's the theory anyway. In practice, I've had issues with being outnumbered, and you end up rolling a LOT of dice during your turn (1d blocks, leaps, sometimes dodges). A turnover can leave you out of place, and with 6-7 movement, this can leave you out of position. (One of the reasons I like the blitzers - the extra movement and especially Jump Up can really cut down on GFI's).

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Omalley69
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Re: Slann for world cup

Post by Omalley69 »

Hmm sounds reasonable. I did not considder that it was not in their intrest to stall.

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Re: Slann for world cup

Post by NairoD »

Hi folks
As Polish Open is comming fast I just start apinting my frogs. I played about 100+ slann games on fumbbl so far

I consider such rosters for tournament. Have to choose better one. Will you help me?


Blitzer Guard/ -/ -
Blitzer Wrestle, Tackle/ -/ -
Catcher Dodge/ -/ -
Catcher Dodge/ -/ -
Catcher -/ Dodge/ -
Catcher -/ -/ Dodge
Linfrog Wrestle/ - -
Linfrog Wrestle/ - -
Linfrog -/ -/ Wrestle
Linfrog -/ Guard/ -
Linfrog -/ -/ -
RR-4


Blitzer Guard/ -/ -
Blitzer Guard/ -/ -
Catcher Dodge/ -/ -
Catcher Dodge/ -/ -
Catcher -/ Pass/ -
Catcher -/ -/ Dodge
Linfrog Wrestle, Tackle/ - -
Linfrog Wrestle/ - -
Linfrog -/ -/ Wrestle
Linfrog -/ Strip ball/ -
Linfrog -/ -/ -
RR-4

Setting for players is the same. Skills differ.

Wrestle/tackle guarantee me 50% of putting ball player on the ground with the ball. For me it is far better as Strip Ball/Wrestle as there is one less tackle zone on the ball to pick up afther blitz. Second roster move it from blitzer in favore of Guard. On blitzer it allow me extra 3 move with jump up - more synergy

What do you thing guys?

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rolo
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Re: Slann for world cup

Post by rolo »

I like your skills (although in my experience I prefer Strip Ball to Tackle).
11 players and no Apoth is going to be adventurous.

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Re: Slann for world cup

Post by NairoD »

rolo wrote:I like your skills (although in my experience I prefer Strip Ball to Tackle).
11 players and no Apoth is going to be adventurous.
Made copy paste mistake

Should be one more linefrog :P

could you explain to my why you prefer wrestle/strip ball.

Fromy experiences from league slann game magic toad skills triumvirate is:

Wrestle
Tackle
Strip Ball

Unfortunately only two are available. I choose Wrestle and tackle because rasons stated above. Tackle/strip ball sounds weird

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Re: Slann for world cup

Post by rolo »

I like Wrestle/Strip Ball because it has the highest chance of putting the ball on the ground. (Assuming no Sure Hands).
You're not playing Slann to beat anyone up, the goal is to take the ball away. They don't score, you do. That's how you win games.

So the question is, "How much Sure Hands am I going to see?". Humans will have it, but having Strip Ball makes them more likely to carry the ball with a Thrower than with a Blitzer, which is probably a net positive for you. Orcs can start with it but many Orc teams leave the Thrower at home anyway. Dwarves start with it and that's a problem, because they'll also have lots of Guard. Skaven start with it but want to carry the ball with Gutter Runners.

There will be coaches who take Sure Hands, but it's not going to be common. So my key assumption is that the majority of opponents won't have a player with Sure Hands. This is based on my personal experience with tournament play in general, including most tournaments not using World Cup rules. Your experience may be different.

If you can get a 2 die hit on the ball carrier (even in a cage, that's a leap with a guarder and a leap with your Wrestle/Stripper), any result but double skulls puts the ball on the ground. One die is an excellent play. Even two dice against succeeds about 70% of the time - and that's over 90% success with a reroll.
Put another way - a Wrestle/Stripper hitting a ball carrier without Sure Hands has the same chance of success (defined as scattering the ball and not causing a turnover) as two 2+ die rolls. You'd take two GFI just to get a chance at the ball carrier, right? Then don't be scared of a 2d against block - with the right tools.

I'm thinking of putting Wrestle/Strip Ball on a Catcher, just to take advantage of the 2+ leaps. THAT is probably a dumb idea, I'd prefer it on a Blitzer (just as fast, Jump Up, Diving Tackle) but still.

My Roster on FumBBL was:
Kroxigor
7x Linefrogs
4x Catchers
0x Blitzers
Apothecary
3x RR, Cheerleader, Coach

Day 1 : Linos 4x Wrestle, Strip Ball, Catcher with Guard, Catcher with Dodge
Day 2 : Stack Wrestle on the Stripper, Dodge on a Catcher
Day 3 : Wrestle on a Lineman, Dodge on the last Catcher

I am still trying to decide whether to swap out the Krox and a Lineman for two Blitzers. Which is basically your roster.

In my experience the 3 rerolls wasn't enough. I could have a 4th if I trade in the Apoth (although he was often excellent, saving skilled players especially the Guard Catcher).

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"It's 2+ and I have a reroll. Chill out. I've got this!"
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Re: Slann for world cup

Post by mawph »

Going for theorybowl, from rolo's roster a krox (plus the cheer/coach) is equivalent to:

Blitzer + reroll
Linefrog + reroll x2

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Re: Slann for world cup

Post by rolo »

Hello fellow frog fanatics!
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I have been testing 3 rosters in WC-rules tournaments and one-offs.
First of all I don't think there's a perfect roster out there. You absolutely can't have everything that you want, so you have to decide what you can best live without. There will be games where that works perfectly, and games where you really needed an extra reroll. Or an extra Blitzer. Or whatever.
The constants in every roster I've been using are:
3 Rerolls - this is an absolute minimum with Slann. 3 is actually a little bit low, and implies that I accept turnovers on low risk or low percentage plays early in the half, because turn 6-8 plays tend to be the critical ones on both offense and defense and I have to save rerolls for that.
12 Players + Apoth. Slann can play okay while outnumbered, but at some point, each player lost just makes the game exponentially more difficult. Not to mention that the Apoth is a great value - spending 50k to keep a skilled, expensive player on the field is a win.
4 Catchers - they're the playmakers of the team. Slower but even more mobile Gutter Runners. Diving Catch is situational but awesome when needed - catch an accurate pass on 2+ in a tackle zone! Save go for its by passing to the square behind your catcher! Get free catch attempts at throw-ins and kickoffs! And most hilariously in a game yesterday, catch bombs thrown into the cage and toss them right back!

Anyway, the 3 rosters I've been using are:

"Smeborg Special"
4 Catchers, 8 Linefrogs, 5 Rerolls, Apoth
I can't claim credit for thinking of this roster, all thanks go to Smeborg. This is gloriously simple - attack the cage every turn, knowing that you have rerolls to spare. Playing this roster, putting the ball on the ground is almost trivial. In theory, at some point, you'll get a good bounce, grab the ball, score on defense, wash, rinse, repeat. In practice, the ball often bounces into many tackle zones and play degenerates into an ugly scrum, which ends badly as often as not. I should say that this has been an issue with every Slann roster.
About half the time, I had rerolls left over after a half with this roster. "That means everything went well, awesome!". But it also means that the additional rerolls were wasted TV which might have been better invested in players. And of course there are games where 5 rerolls aren't enough ... ...

"Two Blitzers"
4 Catchers, 2 Blitzers, 6 Linefrogs, 3 Rerolls, Apoth
This is the most Blitzers that I can field while fulfilling my requirements listed above. The theory here is that the Blitzers (MA7, Jump Up) are faster than the Linefrogs and just as effective jumping into cages - if they save one reroll each on GFI, then they're a straight upgrade over Linefrog+Reroll. Jump Up also gives options even if you fail a leap - as long as they're just prone, in the cage and next to a ball carrier, they're a serious threat and opponents will have to move the cage or try a risky foul.
In practice, this has been my worst-performing roster on defense, although it's also the one I've played the least.
I also intend to test out the variant with 1 Blitzer and 4 rerolls. Sort of a compromise between this and the Smeborg Special.

"Kroxigor"
4 Catchers, 7 Linefrogs, Kroxigor, 3 Rerolls, Apoth, Coach, Cheerleader.
This is the roster that I've played the most. As with any Big Guy, sometimes he giveth, sometimes he taketh away with untimely turnovers or awful Bone-head rolls.
But the Krox is probably the most reliable and useful Big Guy in the game (for whatever that's worth). The leap-cage-crash play usually involves tagging up at least one side to cancel assists. The Kroxigor is much safer for this task than a Linefrog, both because he's harder to hit back, and it makes it more difficult to move the cage. He also takes a lot of pressure off of the rest of the team by marking 2+ opposing players; either they commit more players to assists and knock him down, take risky dodges away from Prehensile Tail, or leave their players there. Either way, that leaves fewer opposition for the rest of your team to deal with! Meaning easier movement, fewer dodges/leaps, easier blocks.
Speaking of fewer opponents to deal with, I don't block with the Kroxigor often but when he does, he hits hard. He was instrumental in a pitch clear (!!!) vs Vampires yesterday (along with some generous assistance from the Vampires). I don't expect to clear the pitch every game with Slann (I don't expect to do so ever again actually) but the Krox can put some fear into your opponent and that can be valuable.
The coach and cheerleader are a bonus - but nearly a third (10/36) of all kickoff results are Brilliant Coaching or Cheering Fans. A +1 bonus on a d3 roll is significant, and any extra rerolls are always welcome.*


* - the quick back-of-the-envelope math on Cheerleader+Coach is that you roll Coaching/Cheering 10 times every 36 kickoffs, and a +1 bonus gets you a reroll which you wouldn't get otherwise one-third of those results. So you get an extra reroll every 10/108 kickoffs (9.25% chance of an extra reroll per kickoff).
This discounts extreme situations - if for example you have +2 FAME and your opponent doesn't have any cheer/coaches, you'll always get a reroll from those kickoff results. And the value also varies based on how many kickoffs you have per game - there are games with only two kickoffs (17.6% chance the cheer/coach win you a reroll), many games with 4 kickoffs (32.2% chance).
Naturally there's the same chance of turning a tied BC/CF roll into a win, which doesn't get you a reroll which you wouldn't have gotten anyway, but which does deny one to your opponent. That's valuable but doesn't help you directly.

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"It's 2+ and I have a reroll. Chill out. I've got this!"
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