Sketching a Khorne development plan

[Smeborg]

Hi all - I have played Khorne a couple of times in a league, and rather enjoyed playing them. Their games are always a bit wild, eh?

This thread is an attempt to sketch a development plan based on what I learnt. Contributions most welcome.

[Smeborg]

STARTING ROSTER
---------------------
Very straightforward IMO:

1 x Bloodthirster
0 x Heralds
4 x Bloodletters
6 x Pit Fighters (Linos)
2 x Re-rolls

Starting without the Bloodthirster simply does not work well (I tried it). Starting with 4 x Bloodletters is cool, they are the "calm" players (lacking Frenzy), so can do a lot of needful "calm" stuff (ball handling, for example). And they are relatively well protected (Regen) while the team has no Apothecary.

To buy: Apoth, 2 x Heralds, then consider a 7th Pit Fighter (Lino). Base TV: 123 with 13 players, 129 with 14 (which is a bit on the high side).

[Smeborg]

PIT FIGHTER (LINO) DEVELOPMENT
----------------------------------------
First to skill up: Leader, Wrestle

Next few: Wrestle, Dauntless (Guard on doubles)

I have tried this system - it works very well. Wrestle is an excellent "substitute" for Block + Tackle (often better). It helps avoid Frenzy traps. Dauntless works very well, remedying the low ST of the team when blocking (as opposed to blitzing). Guard is very compatible with Wrestle, as I have discovered on this and other teams (e.g. Slann, Brets).

[Smeborg]

BLOODTHIRSTER DEVELOPMENT
------------------------------------
M-Blow, Guard (Block on doubles).

A "fast developer", especially by big guy standards, as he takes a lot of blitz actions.

While it does nothing for the BT personally, I found early Guard to be of considerable benefit to the team (e.g. on the Line of Scrimmage).

[Smeborg]

HERALD DEVELOPMENT
--------------------------
Block, Guard (Dodge on doubles).

Alas, the Heralds are late to the party (if you start with none, as I propose). This means their skills will likely come later than for other player types.

The team desperately needs Guard - it seems these are guys to provide it (consciously denying another development path: Block, M-Blow). This team definitely can't have everything.

[Smeborg]

BLOODLETTER DEVELOPMENT
---------------------------------
First to skill up: S-Hands, Dodge, Block (the team Runner).

Others: Dodge, Block, ?

The Bloodletters are the "swing producers" of the team, their skill picks will determine its playing style. With so many skills to pick from (GAS), the choices are many. There are lovely skills to take (not least Grab), but it seems hard to pick them early.

Dodge seems a good first choice for all but 1 BL. The team starts with no re-roll skills. Blodge seems advisable in the light of AV7.

I find the BLs the most difficult players to plan for (because the possibilities are so many - a common issue for GAS player types, luckily there are few of them).

[Smeborg]

GENERAL DEVELOPMENT CONSIDERATIONS
-------------------------------------------------
This is one of those teams lacking starting Block, Dodge and all ball skills. In addition, at least 7 players on the pitch have Frenzy. So the "boring" Wrestle or Block is more or less "mandatory" for most players.

I have found the team can be played without Tackle (plentiful Wrestle being a good substitute).

+AG and +ST are likely to be taken by any player. +AV not at all, and +MA rarely (when matching skills that a player already has).

Doubles are rather useful on this team.

The team probably needs a second or "reserve" ball handler (for when the team Runner is not available). This could be a player with +AG (who might become the primary ball handler), or the 5th Pit Fighter to skill up (S-Hands, Pass). The latter is a luxury some way off. A Dirty Player is likewise a somewhat distant luxury (5th or 6th Pit Fighter to skill up).

A "bonus" of the team is that all except the Bloodthirster are AG3. This means that TDs can be spread around (not necessarily by choice, but because encouraged by the weak and scrambly offense).

Hope that's all of interest.

[Jip]

This was a really interesting read. I've never fancied Khorne (due to all the Frenzy), but this is a really clear intro to it all that makes me think about giving them a go.

Let me know when you've done the same for the other twenty-five teams!

[Smeborg]

This was a really interesting read. I've never fancied Khorne (due to all the Frenzy)...

Thanks for your kind words, Jip. I like simplicity in these plans. Things always become more complicated in practice.

Khorne are so different from the other Frenzy teams that you have to flip a mental switch, and realise that Frenzy is your friend (yes, even all that "naked" Frenzy). The risk/reward equation for this team is different (both higher). When your opponent realises that your team will behave like the rabid nutters they are, it will at least make him sit up!

The team is quite strong in defense, but weak on offense (neither team can easily protect the ball). Typical boards are wild, with players from both teams scattered to all corners. The rookie team can do better than you might think.

Hope that helps.

[esche]

Hi Smeborg, I always like reading your posts, especially your thougts on Khemri a couple of years ago. Keep it up!
We are starting a new league next week and Khorne is one of three teams I am actually looking at. Your starting roster looks good but I am wondering how well do you get along with only 2 starting rr?

Cheers,
esche

[Smeborg]

Hi Smeborg, I always like reading your posts, especially your thougts on Khemri a couple of years ago. Keep it up!
We are starting a new league next week and Khorne is one of three teams I am actually looking at. Your starting roster looks good but I am wondering how well do you get along with only 2 starting rr?

Cheers,
esche

Good question.

- I am very used to playing with 2RRs, from my tournament experience (e.g. with Nurgle and Chaos). It is something anyone can get used to IMO (brutal at first, I know). I think any team with RRs costing 70,000 has to think about starting with just 2 (especially if the team has P skill access).

- First skill-up on a Lino is Leader. Try and get that as soon as you can. First skill-up on a Bloodletter is Sure Hands (ditto). Once you have both, the RR equation will be much happier.

- Consider taking the Blitz action early in the turn (a reliable block because of Juggernaut). And consider moving the most risky blocks (e.g. by Linos) to the end of the turn. Don't be afraid to do "crazy" stuff late in the turn (but not every turn, of course). There are compensations.

- Starting with 4 Bloodletters is a really important way to reduce RR consumption. And starting with the Bloodthirster is important too (it will immediately give you a better win percentage). That simply does not leave room for a 3rd RR.

- The team gets rapidly easier as it skills up. Until then it's a question of "enjoying" the higher risk profile (and its compensations).

Hope that helps.

[BillyDee]

I know this is in the league section, but given the lack of anything comparable in the tournament section, could you give us any insights towards a tournie build and it's usage? Thanks

[Smeborg]

I know this is in the league section, but given the lack of anything comparable in the tournament section, could you give us any insights towards a tournie build and it's usage? Thanks

Another very good question.

I have not played Khorne in a tourney yet (nor have I played against them). They are not easy, but are capable of winning tournaments, believe it or not. I suspect a lot depends on the format. Other teams that start with no Block, no Dodge, and no ball skills also need friendly formats. So I would definitely not expect to be able to take Khorne to any tourney.

The main problem with tourney rosters is cost - Khorne are a relatively expensive team. So you are probably trying to cut corners on cost (e.g. 1 RR + Leader instead of 2 x RR, 12 players + Apoth instead of 13 players). Every point of TV saved counts.

The key, as I understand it (from my league experience and from tourney reports) is to give Wrestle to lots of Linos (Pit Fighters). This transforms them from a mass liability to an asset (it also means you don't need Tackle).

The Khorne ball carrier is indifferent (a Bloodletter with Sure Hands). He can blitz his way forwards, but with no Block or Dodge, he will struggle to hold the ball if attacked.

As with the league team, I suspect having as many Bloodletters as possible is good (for general reliability). I suggest you can easily drop 1 Herald (they are expensive). The Bloodthirster is essential (he will also mess with the minds of bash team coaches).

I would be reluctant to play Khorne in a tourney with less than 13 players (or 12 + Apoth). You are trying to win the numbers game, after all.

I observed a Khorne team in a tourney recently. It did badly, but I believe this was because of an unsuitable format, combined with poor roster choice (a good coach, but inexperienced with Khorne, I think, and IIRC he went with just 11 players). I tried to create a suitable roster for this tourney with Khorne, and ended up taking no RRs (but Leader, of course)! See below. That perhaps illustrates the brutality of format!

Hope that helps.

[Smeborg]

BillyDee - here is the (imagined) team I ended up with for our recent tourney format:

RULES: TV120, you can buy 1 normal skill for any player, if you like (for 20,000). No more than 4 of the same skill can be taken. In addition, the team may spend 70,000 on a "Hero" who has not already been given a skill (the 70,000 may be spent on stat increases and doubles, as well as normal skills, costs as per league).

1 x Bloodthirster "Hero"with Block, M-Blow and 1 other skill (Guard or Stand Firm or Break Tackle, subject to playtesting).
1 x Herald with Block
2 x Bloodletters with Block
2 x Bloodletters with Sure Hands
4 x Pit Fighters with Wrestle
1 x Pit Fighter with Leader
1 x rookie Pit Fighter
No Re-rolls
Apoth

COMMENTS: Now that may well not be to everyone's taste (especially Leader + no Re-rolls), but is the best I think I can make of a "bad" format for Khorne. The team is short of at least 1 RR, and does not appear to have an ideal "Hero" (Big Guys are by nature not great in this role). I was pleased when I found the idea of giving Sure Hands to 2 Bloodletters (experience shows that it is a good way to cope with lack of RRs). This is a skill rich-format, with great looking teams (with fine "Heroes" as well) - the team has to be seen in that context. I may try this next year if I am feeling brave (not to mention lucky).

I have managed to win this tourney in the past with Chaos Dwarfs and Chaos. On both rosters I traded an expensive RR for skills (so only 2 RRs for the CDs, and just 1 for Chaos). So the above roster represents a continuation of this policy towards its extreme, lol.