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I agree with Big A, I like Kick but it only rates a late pick on a Khemri crew. The Skels need too many other things. Now, I do like the thematic synergy of a Dirty Player taking Kick with his next skill. He is off the line anyway, playing D and the skills seem like the same player would use them because he is good with his feet.
What will the 3AG BR get as a second skill? Sure Hands to fully commit to the ballcarrier role?
I still think a Thro-Ra plays that role so much better and the team greatly benefits having two killer BRs but I do look forward to hearing your your experience plays out, smeborg!
Reason:''
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I've really enjoyed this thread. I've been playing Khemri in a TT League for about a year, and they are almost at 20 games. I've also played well over a hundred games on Cyanide with various Khemri teams, but in Matchmaking, which is a different dynamic.
1. I always take MB as first TG skill - in TT or online. They simply skill up too slowly otherwise. In my TT team, I have one Block, MB, Guard, BT TG, two MB Guard and one MB. Agonized about the fourth skill for the Block MB Guard TG - SF or BT? Opted for BT because with ST5 he will be surprisingly mobile.
1A. MB is first skill for Blitz-ras, for the same reason. Skill up too slowly. Ignore all Stats except ST and doubles - see point 7 below.
2. One comment that hasn't been made is how efficient Khemri is from a TV perspective. I have a full roster of 14, 3 TRR, an AC, a CL, 18 skills (4 doubles, no Stats) and after almost 20 games my TV is only 170, including 11 Fan Factor. I've had some unfortunate player deaths (3 skill Throw-Ra and 2 skill Blitz-ra), but generally I will get inducements against other 20 game teams.
3. Throw-ras are critical to early team development. Picking up the ball is the biggest problem, and having SH, even on an AV7 player, saves a lot of TRR. The MA6 is of enormous help as well. I actually started with only one Blitz ra so I could start with two Throw-ras.
4. I took DP on first skelly to skill up. Jury is still out. Next two both got doubles - Guard - and I'm trying desperately to get them to their second skill for Block.
5. I will take Wrestle on a DP skelly, but otherwise I agree that Khemri need to be standing - Block on skellies.
6. Leader is of enormous value on Khemri, given that a TRR costs 70. I took it as the third skill on a Throw-ra, and dropped my fourth TRR. So my team still had 4 rerolls, but my TV went down by 5 - see point 2.
7. I took JU on one Blitz-ra, the theory being he will get PO as his third skill. Have decided that with AG2, JU is bloat, and should have taken Tackle, Guard or PO.
Gimli - yes, I also love the TV efficiency of Khemri. A contrast to Nurgle, who are always in fear of the Wizard.
SunDevil - yes, I expect to give the +AG Blitz-Ra Sure Hands at 16 SPPs. At 31 SPPs (he will surely get there, Nuffle permitting) I am not sure, but I am thinking of Kick-off Return (so that I can plan for a successful pick-up rather than a dropped ball, that seems reasonable with AG3 and Sure Hands). But Tackle is also a strong candidate (both for blitzing with the ball, and for defense, the team will be short of Tackle). I guess Fend would be 3rd choice.
Having played 3 games without Thro-Ras (which I don't think I have ever done before), I am finding the team quite a bit more resilient (as I said above, Thick Skull worked 3 times in the last game).
Gimli wrote:
7. I took JU on one Blitz-ra, the theory being he will get PO as his third skill. Have decided that with AG2, JU is bloat, and should have taken Tackle, Guard or PO.
I am very much of a different opinion on this point because firstly when blitzing no roll is required and if not blitzing having a 66% chance to take a block from prone following a PO is amazingly good! My Legendary Killer in my Cyanide Orca Cola Cup league side has Pro as well which is fantastic with Jump Up (As its not worth wasting Re-rolls on) and for Killers in general for the possible re-roll of unimpressive non turn over blocks. In fact his combination of MB, Tackle, PO, JU, Juggernaut & Pro has allowed him to inflict 86 Casualties and 9 Kills in 76 games which is one hell of a rate of SPP.
Mine is definitely a lucky team, must be all those burnt offerings to Nuffle (the neighbours have started complaining to the city council). I had a decidedly lucky 1-0 win against DEs (CAS: 2-3), For the 4th time in 4 games, I kicked and turned over my opponent (after a long press and a wayward pass by my opponent). The +AG Blitz-Ra had just enough movement to score on turn 8 with a dodge and 2 GFIs (4 or 5 GFIs in 3 turns). In the 2nd half, I got sacked twice and failed to pick the ball up once, but my hapless opponent was once again unable to get a proper pass away. Had a few problems posed by a rookie Assassin (he got a CAS and a KO, and sacked the ball carrier once). I couldn't put him in the dugout.
The +AG Blitz-Ra rolled a 6,4. I have more or less decided to take the +MA, as (a) there is no sign of Strip Ball in the league yet (and there are no Slann or WEs), and (b) the +AG Blitz-Ra seems always to GFI. Here is the team now:
An interesting roster. I am impressed at how fast the Blitz-Ras have skilled up (only 1 MVP out of 30 SPPs between them). This is different to my previous experience, when they have been slow to skill up. It's a race now to get the +AG, +MA Blitz-Ra to 31 SPPs and Sure Hands, which he badly needs ("only" 5 TDs...). I have more or less decided to ignore Dirty Player for the time being, and to skill up 2 (perhaps 3) Skellies with Block (because I badly need 2 Skellies to get to Block, Tackle if they can, seeing as I have no Thro-Ras to act as "wingers" or "sweepers" on defense). 14 players at least allows me to foul. I am also unsure whether to take 1AC+1CL (probably I will, seeing as I am without Sure Hands for now). But I need to replace the crippled Tomb Guardian first.
An interesting experience, this team. Because it is so slow, I find myself playing a "zonal defense" sometimes against AG teams. The "press" has been working well (most players in the league have some experience of playing against Khemri, but not much, they tend to neglect field position on their first turn of offense, it allows the "press" to form). I have been placing 2 Tomb Guadians on the defensive LoS, with the other 2 not far behind (denying extra assists). This has been working well so far by intimidating opponents and bossing the LoS. Of course I couldn't do that against bash teams, or against teams with Guard, but my league is quite AG oriented, and I have not met any Guard yet. So I am making hay while the sun shines.
What is people's experience with the "results curve" with Khemri? My experience so far is that Khemri start well, but then fade back to average. I suspect this is because it is easier to overwhelm rookie teams with raw ST, but that's just a guess.
My last team (still going, in a somewhat different TT environment) won their first 3 games, then faded:
WWWDDLWDLWDLWWL
Is that "normal" for Khemri? I'll be interested to see if my new team is able to break the pattern.
I think that really depends on your environment and league set up, as a rough trend I find Khemri are at there best from 1400 - 1950tv range once they get over that it becomes increasingly difficult to get solid returns in skills for the Tv gained. That's only a guideline however and honestly my issues in on going league formats are not with playing against any specific tv level of opponent but instead against the quality of coaches I find hovering just outside the top 'championship' division of play. In both the OCC and UKBBL I've been able to fly up to tier 2 but always get relegated afterwards bouncing between tiers 2 -3 until my team gets broken and I get sent to lower division to rebuild.
In the OCC that''s not been helped by the loss of 3 & then 2 experienced Tomb Guardians in the season before promotion leaving me forced to attempt to rebuild my team in what's considered the Tier of the grind. Actually i'd listen to suggestions to how I should deal with my next 3 games in Tier 2 currently.
I've just levelled my 2nd Rookie Guardian this season which rolled 2,2 so will take block. So far this season I drew against a 2100 Chaos side, then lost to 1900 Amazons & 2000tv Nurgle, I just drew with 2000tv Undead (with 10 guard!!) so next up I have....
I'm also interested to see how you guys rate them in terms of threat to my team and how winnable the games are in you opinions, I have very strong feelings as to what I'm concerned about and have a order of difficultly solidly in my mind but I wanted to see what other unbiased views are on the matter, what tactics you feel I should employ and what you would do with my team development wise and inducement wise (playing in Cyanide btw).
What upsets me with the team is that it is like an extreme problem befalling all strength teams. Namely when the st4/5 guy dies. Bad enough with black orcs and the like, with Khemri it is seriously grim as it can happen a lot more easily thanks to decay. So you bimble along, get to a high TV environment, meet a killer team and bang lose a skilled mummy and there is no easy way back (contrast to a chaos warrior who can score touchdowns, is harder to hurt, etc).
Chris wrote:What upsets me with the team is that it is like an extreme problem befalling all strength teams. Namely when the st4/5 guy dies. Bad enough with black orcs and the like, with Khemri it is seriously grim as it can happen a lot more easily thanks to decay. So you bimble along, get to a high TV environment, meet a killer team and bang lose a skilled mummy and there is no easy way back (contrast to a chaos warrior who can score touchdowns, is harder to hurt, etc).
Lol Tell me about it and while those players tend to be pretty uninspiring featuring commonly Guard, Mighty Blow and Stand Firm or Grab they are the most critical work horses of the team with how I play them. Basically without those guys my offence crumbles on a early turn over that's destined to happen at some point leaving me out of the game of at best seeking a draw.
Smeborg wrote:What is people's experience with the "results curve" with Khemri? My experience so far is that Khemri start well, but then fade back to average. I suspect this is because it is easier to overwhelm rookie teams with raw ST, but that's just a guess.
My last team (still going, in a somewhat different TT environment) won their first 3 games, then faded:
WWWDDLWDLWDLWWL
Is that "normal" for Khemri? I'll be interested to see if my new team is able to break the pattern.
All the best.
I don't think that's necessarily the pattern. I do think other players may not know how to play against Khemri initially, but will get better at it and thus the pattern could be a result of that. Here's the record of my two most-played teams (both are from scheduled leagues):
- Online, where matches have been played against teams with similar amount of games played: WWWWDDWWWLWWWWLWLDWWD (link to team)
- Tabletop against a wider variety of teams: LDDWDWDLWWDDWDWWLLLDWWLWWLDWWLLWLWWLDDWWWWLLWWLW (link to team)
Neither has displayed a decisive fading effect. Yet.
The winning streak finally came to an end last night.
Facing Undead, I lost the kick-off roll for the 5th time out of 5. I managed a sort of press, an early shot at the ball (it failed), and finally a sack of the ball-carrying Ghoul. Alas the ball scattered via 2 of my players and the prone ball-carrier to another Ghoul, who caught it (a kind scatter or a catch by one of my players might well have led to a win). 0-1 down at half time. A simple grind in the 2nd half (I was well up on numbers following 3 KOs on the first turn) for a 1-1 draw (CAS: 3-1). 5 KOs by rookie Skellies in this game, not bad. But my opponent had 2 babes, the KOs kept coming back. A squeaky bum moment at the end when my opponent got a riot giving him a 2-turn score attempt. But it failed immediately, phew!
Skilled up another Tomb Guardian, so 3 M-Blow on the team now. The Blitz-Ra with M-Blow was rather quiet in this game, but he did sack the ball carrier. Lots of armour rolls on Ghouls for very few results (1 KO and 1 CAS, the CAS was self-inflicted on a dodge). Am looking forward to skilling up the Skellies soon. The +AG/+MA Blitz-Ra is pretty handy on defense, he got an early pop at the ball (but when it failed he was stranded). Finally managed to replace the crippled Tomb Guardian.
Smeborg wrote:I am about to hit the mean streets of our main TT league with my Khemri team, the Short Range Desert Group. Their motto is: "Always on the ball", given that they never pick it up. I have had a little practice in our informal league, hence my questions:
(1) GUARD VS. M-BLOW ON TOMB GUARDIANS. Guard is the best skill on TGs, IMO. I took M-Blow first in our informal league (random MVP) and regretted it for quite a long time (although after 14 games, thinks are looking much better). If I were to play in a random MVP league with Khemri again, I would take Guard first. However, our main league uses chosen MVP, so I am thinking of taking M-Blow first, on the basis that the TGs will get to their 2nd skill pretty fast (rather than getting stuck on 1 skill). Do you think this is the right choice?
(2) DODGE AND BREAK TACKLE. I have a Blitz-Ra with Dodge and B-Tackle. He is fairly good, he brings good mobility. It's a lot of development resource, though. Should I ignore doubles with the Blitz-Ras and stick with the obvious normal skills (M-Blow, Guard etc.)? And if I get 2 doubles rolls on a Thro-Ra (quite possible), should I take Dodge + B-Tackle? It seems a pretty neat combo to me, better perhaps than Dodge + Sidestep.
(3) FIGURINES. I have the GW Tomb Guardians, which I rather like. I also have GW (Undead) Skellies, which I also rather like. I do not like the GW Khemri Blitz-Ras and Thro-Ras, and am rather allergic to multi-piece figurines and skinny legs. Do you have any recommendations for Blitz-Ra and Thro-Ra figurines which would match my TGs and Skellies?
Thanks in advance for your help and all the best.
I m playing khemri in my lical TT league.
Guard on all men.
I would give Dodge to à blitzers only ifs hé hasard already guard.
On tomb Guardian only block is better as first skill...
On thrower. I would give him Dodge (instead of guard) only if already +ag or +Str.
First saison with khemri. Short season. Only 5 games. Tv110 with à free chose skill at start on a captain.
My captain was à TG. With Mb. But that stupide TG took 5 games to do 3CAS...
At thé end my team was:
Tg Captain with MB
2 TG rookie (i was notre Lucky with mvp roll...)
1 TG with guard 11xp : much better as m'y captain...
1 rookie blitzer
1 blitzers with guard and mighty blow (my best player)
1 thr with block
1 thr with kickoff (anticipation in french)
5 rookie skell
3 RR
Current season Isabelle tv100 without captain. 5games thé playoff.
After thé first 5games:
4 rookie TG (xp 4 4 0 3... i scored with one offrant them...)
2 blitzers with guard!
1 thr leader
1 thr with +ag (i do love him )
1 skell wrestle (Great player)
1 skell with kick (because of the playoff...)
3 rookie skell...
2 RR
1/1 assistants/cheerleader...
This time i'm trying tout min max my tv. 2 RR was short at startup. But now with the leader,, the 2 guard (3 dices block for TG) assistants 'm confortable enough
The problem I see with Khemri is that once they get to around 200 TV or so they are going to be playing with a bunch of Claw POMBer teams. Even with ST5, the usually Block-less TGs are going to succumb quickly, unless they can be skillfully and repeatedly shielded by skellies. (Skellies are the best Claw POMBer defense - their AV7 makes them "immune" to Claw, and their TS makes them much more likely to stay on the pitch). I intend to take my TT Khemri team into my League's advanced Division which is dominated by a couple of scary Chaos/Chaos Dwarf teams, and right now my only plan is to have a few DPs and use my inducements on Bribes. Any other thoughts on how Khemri survives/fares at high TV?
(xp 4 4 0 3... i scored with one offrant them...)