Kick It & Undead (short one...)

[Joaquim]

Hi,

We are thinking of trying out the kicking rules (I don't like them... but I would like to know why!! )

We use the 15 Official teams, wich means there is an Undead team, not 3... and I was looking at MBBL rules and Kickers and... well, there isn't any Undead Kicker, but I guess they can use the skeleton or the ghoul (but not both).... or it is supossed to use only the skeleton (from Khemri)?

(the short part has to be the answer, I guess)

[GalakStarscraper]

For a straight Undead team go with 0-3 Ghoul Runners and 0-1 Ghoul Kicker ... use the Necromantic team for the MBBL as a baseline example.

Galak

[Vargtass]

I'm not sure I understand this addition to the undead team roster.

Why would there be a kicker in the Undead team? They don't field a passer, even though many play the ghouls that way. Just adding a kicker because there's a rules system for kicking seems as unnecessary as claiming all teams should have access to passers, because there's rules for passing.

I think that the kicking rules are interesting, and hope they get official in some version. Then rosters should be updated, perhaps using the current experimental system with alternate passers/kickers, or by adding the kicker player category wherever appropriate.

However, a team like undead (or lizards, for that matter) should not be awarded a kicker out of the blue to their roster, without giving due thought to their general style of play, that doesn't include e.g. passers.

Still, an undead team may develop kickers on doubles (as well as passers), much like chaos dwarves, lizards, and some others.

Vargtass

[GalakStarscraper]

The reasoning for the Kicker position on each roster was this:

Kick is currently a general skill. Virtually every roster is one skill roll away from having a kicker. IE unlike passing skills, virtually every team can develop a kicker without doubles.

Following this logic, when creating the kicking rules, the Kick was desired to be move to the Kicking category. However now all those teams like Undead that used to be able to create a kicker with a normal skill roll cannot. This led to the eventual decision to add a Kicker position to each roster which return the teams back more to Kicker being a normal part of the team. Too many coaches on Chaos, Undead, Lizard, and Chaos Dwarf teams argued against having to now develop Kickers on doubles and in the end we agreed with them.

Galak

[Snew]

How about if we just don't have kicking rules? Problem solved.

I think Vargtass is right about it being a bit cheesey giving everyone a kicker. If you're going to use them, they should develop along normal lines. After their first skill roll, they decide to become a kicker.

[GalakStarscraper]

Listen at this point, I'd be really happy if the Handbook included an Official Optional Rule Section in the back.

I see two things that I'd place in that section:
Kicking
On-Pitch Spellcasters

Both have been tested over and over again, but the truth is that they should be optional not forced.

I don't know if we could ever get an Official Optional Rule Section, but that's were I think kicking should go.

Galak

[Colin]

Don't know about on-pitch spellcasters, never much liked using wizards in BB, but I do agree on the kicking rules being put in official optional rules section. lets those who want to use them to be able to do so as official rules and those who don't like them can ignore them as they are only optional rules.

[Darkson]

Can't comment on on-pitch spellcasters, as I haven't used them much, but I'd like to see kicking made an official optional as well.

[Joaquim]

Well, if this is a kind of pool count me too....!!...

I really think the book should have:

The core rules (basic & "advanced" - Anybody knows someone who plays with the basic rules after the 1st game?!?!)

Optional rules (Kick, On-pitch spellcasters, some extra-teams)

And even a section for "test" rules.... (extra teams, stadiums, etc)....


Even if this mean bringing the download to more than 2 hours....


Joaquim

[Darkson]

Well, if this is a kind of pool count me too....!!...

What kind of pool- Olympic or smaller?

[Ghost of Pariah]

Personally after playing the kicking rules I have to say that i like them!

I was an unbeliever but now I see the light!

Anyway, my only tweak would be to put the kicking skills in the General Skills category (that section needs more skills anyway) and get rid of the "kicker" position.

[Vargtass]

I agree that the kicking rules are nice but needs tweaking. As Galak pointed out earlier in this thread:

Kick is currently a general skill. Virtually every roster is one skill roll away from having a kicker. IE unlike passing skills, virtually every team can develop a kicker without doubles.

Following this logic, when creating the kicking rules, the Kick was desired to be move to the Kicking category. However now all those teams like Undead that used to be able to create a kicker with a normal skill roll cannot.

I still don't think that adding a kicker to all roosters is the right way to go about it. In my opinion, the general way of kicking is at kick-off. All teams can do this; all teams may specialize in this. However, field goal kicking should require a different level of dedication and inherent talent in the team, analogous to passing. Not all teams specialize easily in passing, neither should all possess dedicated kickers.

My suggestion is to keep a general skill named Kick-off, that works exactly like the official Kick today. In addition, the experimental rules should include the expanded Kick skill in the kicking skill section. This skill would fully overlap the general Kick-off skill and provide the specialization for field goal kicking.

Now, all teams may choose Kick-off on a normal skill roll (barring goblins and halflings) and teams with dedicated kickers (e.g. those with current passer positions) would be free to specialize fully at kicking.

Please feel free to comment. I have not tested the system, but think it makes sense.

Btw, I think the official optional rules section would be excellent.

Vargtass

[GalakStarscraper]

Personally after playing the kicking rules I have to say that i like them!

I was an unbeliever but now I see the light!

WOW!!! Pickle me stunned.

Okay couple extra words on the reason for the Kicker position.

Is it a big change; yes it is to add another position to the rosters, but I've been helping test versions of kicking rules for 2 years and along the way something have come to light.

1) You cannot make Kick a general skill with the rules unless you have it only effect the opening kickoff and not allow rerolling FG attempts. The reason.... quite simple: normal skill access to this type of skill is murder on a Gutter Runner or Wood Elf Catcher ... so you have to make sure that those two players no matter what needs doubles to go anywhere near kicking skills.

2) Unlike Passing; all teams other than stunties have access to a Kicker type player under the current rules. So its considered a much more open skill category than passing. As a result, having a kicker position for each team made sense.

3) The old system of replace a Thrower with a Kicker deprived many teams of the ability to have Kickers that should not have and other teams like Dwarves greatly objected over the loss of a Runner for a Kicker.

So far after almost 2 years of playing with kicking rules; this set makes the most overall sense. I especially like the field that Pariah made for the MBBL .... very nice. Last I understood is that a revised version of the kicking rules might show up in the 2003 Annual showing this information.

So I hear what you are all saying about the Kicker position; but really at the end of the day ... its been the simplest and best solution to our problem to balance the rules.

Galak

[Darkson]

Just a quickie.

MOUK have kindly set me a BB Annual 2002 free of charge . What changes have been made to the kicking rules as presented in that book?

[GalakStarscraper]

Just a quickie.

MOUK have kindly set me a BB Annual 2002 free of charge . What changes have been made to the kicking rules as presented in that book?

Kicking Rules:
http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL/MBBL_Kicking.html

Kicker positions on teams:
http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL/MBBL_GWRosters.html


The only change from these rules that I've heard discussed was that since kicking is so difficult that the points for a TD and a Field Goal would both be made worth 1 point again. This eliminates one of the last big problems with kicking in that its 2 point FG/3 point TD screws up the system to much. Kicking is very difficult and a very far thing from a sure thing ... is this change worth the fact that it makes the system a heck of a lot easier to slide into existing rules ... I'll be honest that I'm not sure ... Pariah has already told me that he hates the idea. Anyway, the above rules are what the MBBL is currently using ... the 1 points for TD and FG things is rumbles on the street.

Galak