stab vs dump off

[krendal]

hi guys, i have a big doubt....
if my opponent declare to stab(ie: like a blitz, move then stab) with his assassin, can i declare a dump off?
thx for answer

[Little_Rat]

Stab = Instead of throwing a Block

Dump Of = Works when the Opponent throws a Block.

So it´s not working ^^ The same goes for Chainsaws ^^

[Father911]

The exact wordings....

STAB: This player may attack an opponent with their stabbing attack instead of throwing a block at them.

Dump-off: This skill allows the player to make a Quick Pass when an opponent declares that he will throw a block at him.

Little-Rat is right, by the wording dump-off will not work. I personally feel that it probably should, and this is just a situation that we didn't think of during development, but it's too late to fix now. (at least for LRB 5.0)

[Warpstone]

Little-Rat is right, by the wording dump-off will not work. I personally feel that it probably should, and this is just a situation that we didn't think of during development, but it's too late to fix now. (at least for LRB 5.0)

I'd probably call it the same way but playing devils advocate here: isn't stab basically a sneaky, unpreventable attack? Basically, nothing can prevent a stab from happening, only armour will prevent it from causing damage. So, why would a dump-off player have a chance to use their skill if a stab always "hits" even if it doesn't cause damage? Basically, there is no chance for the dump-off to interrupt a sneak attack like stab.

[bitMonkey]

For what it's worth, I agree with warpstone. It makes sense methinks.

[Turin]

Warpstone is absolutely right: You will definitely realize it, when a fat ogre runs to you, baring his teeth and yelling something like "Die, elfen scum!!", but maybe (rather: surely) not if a professional killer approaches you unconspiciously and all of a sudden thrusts a dagger between your ribs.
If your player fears any moving halfling approaching him without the clear purpose of blocking him, this little wimp should rather knit.

[Mad Jackal]

I'm pretty sure you guys are wrong.

The stab portion or chainsaw portion is declared AFTER the victem is named in the attack.

Using Father's descriptions even.

Thus if I'm blitzing you (even planning on using the knife or chainsaw) then I must declare "Blitz" and move next to you. Then I must declare the target of my blitz, at whom I'm going to throw a block (as this is a blitz action).

AT that point the Dump Off triggers. As the "Target of a block" Dump off is used or not, player's choice, and then we proceed to work out the block action.

At which time I go to roll those dice, I may choose to use block dice or roll 2D6 and stab instead (based on the description of stab). If I had a chainsaw, how-ever then I forced to use the 2D6 chainsaw attack instead of the block dice. But that is only resolved at this time.

The same applies to a block (not blitzing). Stabbing is part of a Block it replaces the block.

This in my opinion is supported by the fact that multiple block and stab work in combination. Though multible block only allows you to throw two blocks in it's description.

Feel free to gmail Galak though. I'm pretty certain he'll back me. (And if he doesn't, I need to know so I can play it correctly then.)

[Turin]

Thus if I'm blitzing you (even planning on using the knife or chainsaw) then I must declare "Blitz" and move next to you. Then I must declare the target of my blitz, at whom I'm going to throw a block (as this is a blitz action).

You only have to declare the blitz. The target is to be declared right before using the weapon/blocking it. You do not "blitz" an opponent, you are undertaking a blitz and as part of this action you either block your opponent or stab him.

AT that point the Dump Off triggers. As the "Target of a block" Dump off is used or not, player's choice, and then we proceed to work out the block action.

You're not right here. You declare the blitz, move your player next to your "victim" and declare to throw a block on him. Before you actually roll the dice(/die), the quick pass is worked out, not immediately after declaring to undertake a blitz.
When you stab him, you do not block him, wherefore dump-off doesn't work. The skill description clearly states that it is used by a player who is blocked, wheras stab states that you do not throw a block, but something else. Why should some block rules apply, where not explicitly stated, if others do not?

(Btw: That's one of th reason why I think, very much like you, that multiple block doesn't work in combination with stab.)

[Mad Jackal]

Turin.

First I'm going to start with a simple carification. There are Blocks and blocks. One is an action, and the other is a mechanic. And all actions must be declared. Most people are very forgiving on the declarations of "Moves and Blocks becasue they are simple and intuative, plus they are not limited to only 1 per turn." How-ever certain things trigger others, so it matters. I realize when you say "6 is blocking 5" that you mean "6 is taking a block action with 5 as the target".

In reality when you say "6 is stabbing 5" you mean "6 is taking a Block action with 5 as the target". No-one should be splitting hairs with you on the terminaolgy, but this of course has to be done here to prove the point.

(Pass, Blitz, Hand Off, Move, Block, Foul.)

A Block is an action. "I block him." "I move there" Again all actions must be declared as each miniature may only make 1 action per turn. He has Blocked, so he can not now Pass. He has already Fouled, so he may not Block now.


Now please, re-read what you quoted from me.

I very clearly said

1. I declare my blitz.
2. I move next to you.
3. I declare the target of the blitz. (Whom the Block action will be targetting)

4. Dump off triggers (if the target of the Block has the skill dump off).

I'll stop here for a moment.

That is how the rule works for EVERY BLITZ in the world that does not include a knife or chainsaw. Can we at least agree on that??
IF we can't then thsi will help us resolve the issue.

If we can lets move on.
----------------------------------------------
Now. Stab reads "instead of blocking you may stab". Which has been ruled that you replace the block with the stab. In the Block Action, you throw a block and roll block dice normally. How ever, stab lets you replace a block with a stab.

So when you get to "5" throw the block. You "replace the block with a stab and throw the 2d6".

If this were not true. And the above order violated. then why must I declare a blitz to move and stab ? Or to move and chainsaw? I'm not moving and blocking, so it is not a blitz. It is because you are Moving and Blocking. Which by defenition is the Blitz Action.

It is establised that Multi-Block DOES work with stab. Are we sure there is not a FAQ about this? I unfortunately can not get my adobe acrobat working to open the files so I can point it out. Can any-one please confirm or deny the existance of said FAQ ?

Now blocking is just like blitzing with no movement spent. So the same thing applies. "I'm Blocking him, does he wish to dump off?" ok I'll replace the block with a stab. He still gets to dump off first.



(I apologize if this is not edited very well, and wish to ensure that it is stated this is not personal, I am just trying to be clear in my arguments as much as my poor English skills allow ok ?)

[GalakStarscraper]

MJ has it correct. Using Stab or a Chainsaw in place of a block requires the target of the block be declared first at which point Dump Off would kick in before you decide to replace the block with Stab or Chainsaw.

As MJ said ... this is why Multiple Block and Stab work together because the Stab move actually "counts" as a block thus allowing Multiple Block to work. The FAQ on this exact ruling extends the logic directly to how Dump Off would work with Stab and Chainsaw as well.

The only reason you cannot use a Chainsaw twice with Multiple Block is because the Chainsaw skill says it can only be used once per turn.

Galak

[Mad Jackal]

Thanks Galak.

That clears it up for me.

[bitMonkey]

Isn't it odd that a player can keep his cool to do a dump-off, but not raise a hand to defend himself? Though the rules state otherwise (thanks Galak), I'm not sure I understand how this can be motivated. Stab is a sneaky attack, no?

[fen]

The only reason you cannot use a Chainsaw twice with Multiple Block is because the Chainsaw skill says it can only be used once per turn.

*Boos* for 'the man', keeping my Chainsaw Looney down!

[GalakStarscraper]

Stab is a sneaky attack, no?

Sneaky in that the ref doesn't notice the illegal weapon .. yes ... Sneaky in that the opponent doesn't see the illegal weapon (and player) coming ... no.

Galak

[Snew]

Isn't it odd that a player can keep his cool to do a dump-off, but not raise a hand to defend himself? Though the rules state otherwise (thanks Galak), I'm not sure I understand how this can be motivated. Stab is a sneaky attack, no?

If you're going to get fluffy, why do you think he didn't defend himself against the stab? Stabs fail more often than not. Perhaps he defended himself better than you thought.