Special Play Cards

[Papa Sebco]

Have you read the Necro cards? You have one that Roots a player another that goes straight to injury roll and the Zap spell as options.
If all teams had there own deck then there would be some balance but with only some teams having access to them it seems unfair.
100k seems reasonable and would be high up on my pick list at that price if they were allowed.

I have bought the general vanilla card pack + the dwarf/skaven/necro one. I've played a BB 2020 little NAF tourney + some 110/115 resurrection games training.

I wouldn't go for a 1 000 000 gp + 1 necro card team vs a 1 100 000 gp team to sum up my thoughts. That doesn't mean those cards can't be good. But, when you pay for 100 000 gp, you don't know what will be your card. You draw 2 cards and have to chose one. Try that (drawing 2 cards and chosing 1 in a necro pack) and count how many times that's a good choice for 100k.

"Rogue vines" (necro Random Events card which roots an opponent player until the end of a drive or until he's knocked down or placed prone) and "Ribbit" (necro Random Events card which gives zap on 3+) are real good cards. If I would be sure to draw them, I would maybe pay for 100 000. But I'm not sure to draw them, it's a 2/8 !

In league, when you have petty cash cause your CTV is under your opponent CTV, that can be more interesting. But, still, you need at least petty cash 100 000. And, if you have more than 130 000 petty cash, not sure if 1 necro card + a 30 000 inducement is better than Bryce "the slice" Cambuel at 130 000 for example. So, for me, it's interesting when you have petty cash between 100 000 and 125 000 and that's only a good way to rebalance game, not a way to make small CTV team better than high CTV team (while star players can sometimes do that).

[Lyracian]

You draw 2 cards and have to chose one. Try that (drawing 2 cards and chosing 1 in a necro pack) and count how many times that's a good choice for 100k.

If you think four of the cards are worth 100k you have a (4/8) + (4/8*4/7) = 79% of getting one of those cards. That is very good odds. A Bribe only works 83%; Igor is 50%, or 75% if you want to look at it as a re-roll on a failed Regen. To me that puts it on par with these options.

I would maybe pay for 100 000. But I'm not sure to draw them, it's a 2/8 !

The math of drawing two cards (2/8)+(6/8*2/8) = 44%. If you only think two of the cards are worth it then that changes how much you value the option of drawing from the deck. I do not own the cards but when I looked at my friends there were 4 that I considered good. Of the others only one was trash (and you always draw two) another was similar to Igor and the last two were a bit random but had 50% chance of taking out an opponents player.

In league, when you have petty cash cause your CTV is under your opponent CTV, that can be more interesting. But, still, you need at least petty cash 100 000. And, if you have more than 130 000 petty cash, not sure if 1 necro card + a 30 000 inducement is better than Bryce "the slice" Cambuel at 130 000 for example. So, for me, it's interesting when you have petty cash between 100 000 and 125 000 and that's only a good way to rebalance game, not a way to make small CTV team better than high CTV team (while star players can sometimes do that).

New rules you can spent Treasury on top of Petty Cash. If you are getting 70k Petty Cash then spending 30k gets you a card, or other 100k inducement, without giving your opponent anything.

Now you are trying to compare a 100k inducement with a 130k one. Chainsaws are better this edition but there is no guarantee he will do anything other than kill himself on the first attack. We were discussing if the cards are worth 100k not if you would pick it over more expensive inducements if you have more gold to spend.

As a 100k Inducement I think the cards are fine but they are unbalanced because only some teams have access to them and the power of the cards varies by team. If I was playing in a League that allowed cards I would be picking these over Bribes and Igor for any team where I think four or more of the cards are worth taking. That is the break point though if you think only 2 cards are worth having then clearly they are not worth the cost to you.

Depending on opponent I could see taking a card over a Chainsaw but that really is a different debate and I have not played with the new rules yet to see how the changes to Chainsaw play out in the game.

[Papa Sebco]

My opinion on special play cards is that they are not broken, even when you use specific rosters packs (as necro pack). I wrote all that cause you said your league commi forbids them. But I agree to say they can be interesting and even sometimes more than interesting. Anyway, that's clearly a matter of opinion at this stage (not many BB 2020 played).

New rules you can spent Treasury on top of Petty Cash. If you are getting 70k Petty Cash then spending 30k gets you a card, or other 100k inducement, without giving your opponent anything.

Let's say Lyracian has a 110 CTV team and faces Sebco with a 117 CTV team. Lyracian is offered 70 000 petty cash.

If Lyracian spends 30 000 from its treasury, he can buy an inducement at 100 000. Then Sebco's team is the underdog (117 < 120) but 30 000 difference is not enough to have a prayer of Nuffle, so yes Sebco's team will remain at CTV 117 and Lyracian will have a little better CTV for the game.

But that's only because, in your example, Lyracian spends 30 000 (that works also with 40 000 but not with 50 000+) and not Sebco.

If Sebco spends 40 000 to buy 1 temp agency cheerleader and 1 part-time assistant coach and Lyracian spends nothing, it will be the opposite. He will have a little better CTV for the game (121 > 117) without giving any prayer of Nuffle to Lyracian.

[Lyracian]

My opinion on special play cards is that they are not broken, even when you use specific rosters packs (as necro pack). I wrote all that cause you said your league commi forbids them. But I agree to say they can be interesting and even sometimes more than interesting. Anyway, that's clearly a matter of opinion at this stage (not many BB 2020 played).

I find it ft funny you seen to think they are not worth 100k and not broken where as I think they are worth 100k but are broken.

To me the fact that not all races have them is a major issue for me. If you play in a league using Racial cards those three raced, soon to be five, with card packs have an advantage that other races do not. Maybe the designers want Tier 2 and 3 teams to have better cards but Necro cards seem way better than the Dwarven offering.

If Sebco spends 40 000 to buy 1 temp agency cheerleader and 1 part-time assistant coach and Lyracian spends nothing, it will be the opposite. He will have a little better CTV for the game (121 > 117) without giving any prayer of Nuffle to Lyracian.

What has any of that got to do with Special Play Cards? You are just talking about standard inducement spending! If L only spends 60k and S spends 40 then L get a Prayer. Not that I would care about giving opponent a single Prayer. If two teams are the same value either can spend 40k without giving the opponent something.

[Papa Sebco]

I find it ft funny you seen to think they are not worth 100k and not broken where as I think they are worth 100k but are broken.

As I wrote in my last message, my only point is to say they are not broken, in my opinion.

I didn't say they were not worth 100k. They sometimes will be and sometimes won't.

To me the fact that not all races have them is a major issue for me.

I agree that this is an issue and also wait for all teams to have specific special play cards packs.

As I wrote in my previous messages, I only reacted to you writing this :

My commissioner took one look at the Necro team cards and went "they are banned". They are completely unbalanced and the Sakven ones look to be similar.

That's the point I disagree with. That doesn't mean I disagree with all your points.

If Sebco spends 40 000 to buy 1 temp agency cheerleader and 1 part-time assistant coach and Lyracian spends nothing, it will be the opposite. He will have a little better CTV for the game (121 > 117) without giving any prayer of Nuffle to Lyracian.

What has any of that got to do with Special Play Cards?

I reacted to you writing this :

New rules you can spent Treasury on top of Petty Cash. If you are getting 70k Petty Cash then spending 30k gets you a card, or other 100k inducement, without giving your opponent anything.

It may be because english is not my mother's tongue and some things I write may be difficult to understand for a native english speaker but our debate is really more complicated than it should be.

You wrote that specific team play cards were broken, I wrote that they weren't, according to me, and that's all. Everything else is only a way to fullfill an almost empty forum / topic.

[TopsyKretts]

You got to randomize which deck to draw from (1/6). Each team (with team specific decks) can replace 2 of those decks. So you still only have 2/6 chance (1/3) to get a team specific deck, before drawing any cards.

[Papa Sebco]

You got to randomize which deck to draw from (1/6). Each team (with team specific decks) can replace 2 of those decks. So you still only have 2/6 chance (1/3) to get a team specific deck, before drawing any cards.

That's an interesting point. Before to buy the packs, that's how I thought it should work. But when I read rules written on the "how to use these cards" card in these packs, that's not how I understood it works.

This is written :

"When a Necromantic horror (or Skaven or Dwarf) team purchases a Special Play as an inducement, instead of rolling to see which of the standard decks a card is drawn from, a Necromantic horror (or Skaven or Dwarf) coach may choose one of the two decks from this pack to draw from instead. Once they have selected a deck to draw from, follow the normal rules for drawing Special Plays as outlined on page 90 of the Blood Bowl rulebook."

[TopsyKretts]

That's an interesting point. Before to buy the packs, that's how I thought it should work. But when I read rules written on the "how to use these cards" card in these packs, that's not how I understood it works.

This is written :

"When a Necromantic horror (or Skaven or Dwarf) team purchases a Special Play as an inducement, instead of rolling to see which of the standard decks a card is drawn from, a Necromantic horror (or Skaven or Dwarf) coach may choose one of the two decks from this pack to draw from instead. Once they have selected a deck to draw from, follow the normal rules for drawing Special Plays as outlined on page 90 of the Blood Bowl rulebook."

That is crazy. If a team is so lucky to have their own deck, they can choose to draw from 1 of 2 team-specific decks, having a 25% chance to draw any particular card of those 16 cards (2x8). But they can also choose to draw universal card (like all the other teams), but the chance of getting any one particular card there is 4.166% (25% * 1/6)! This is a huge advantage for those few lucky teams...

With such a huge shift on probabilities, players will be much more rewarded by studying all 8 decks and the strengths within them before purchasing this inducement. This also puts a huge stress on the balance between the 2 decks each team gets. If the decks are unbalanced, a team may only ever select the best deck (or universal), and the worst deck is effectively non-existing. The days of casually drawing some random cards to play with are gone...