Worst thrower in the game...

[Long_Bomb]

Sorry for the pointless poll at the star but it is an interesting issue to consider. Thro-ras are clearly the worst thrower on any team, but because of the team they play for they are one of very few throwers that are regularly seen in pairs on the pitch. Most other teams don’t include a second thrower and many very good players don’t even include one thrower on their tournament roster for some races, which does suggest there is probably something that could be done better in the design of many of the throwers of some teams.

I really liked the changes made to the Dark Elf thrower to make him into a runner who has a clear place on the team and a fun trick that gives him and the team a unique feel and a different reason to reach for the range ruler. I can't help feeling many of the current throwers could be improved with a more creative approach to their skill selection.

Given that pass skill is only likely to be used very occasionally by a team and can be easily be replicated with a team re-roll, is there another skill that would like to see on a player? Preferably a skill that makes passing in some form more likely or effective. Would you like to see HMP on Slann or Accurate on Amazon’s?

[Regash]

many very good players don’t even include one thrower on their tournament roster for some races

The only reason I ever heard for that is, those people play very competitive and try to minimize dice rolls. A pass always needs two rolls (Pass & Catch) while a handoff only needs one. (Catch). Two rolls are two chances to f*ck up.

Since I'm not very competitive and don't attend any tournaments, a Thrower always has a spot on my rosters.

[spubbbba]

I've always liked the human throwers and usually included both. They are only 20k more and come with 2 decent skills, block is always their first normal choice. Then one gets accurate and the rest of the normal skills taken utility ones like kick, leader, kick off return tackle and strip ball. That way they can be used on defence as sweepers. I found linemen rarely lived long enough to get these skills since they end up on LOS and the apoth was usually saved for better players.

The strange thing about throwing is that the threat of a pass can be more useful than actually throwing the ball. Having some catchers roaming about as a threat can split the defence and leave gaps to run the cage through.

For new skills, how about emphasising the quarterback role more, something along the lines of leader? Something like a fake pass that can force opposing players to make a passblock style move (assuming no dodges needed).

Maybe you could have skills that help with the kick off along similar lines to kick off return? Stuff that helps with quick snap, perfect defence, blitz etc.

[rolo]

I voted Thro-Ra (CAN CONFIRM).

Slann don't have throwers, but if they did, HMP wouldn't be a bad choice, what with all those catchers with Diving Catch ...

[Mystic Force]

To go on the catching thing for a second, I have seen people discussing the human catcher and why they don't take him, and how they would make him worth taking, however, pretty much all suggestions (well more armour vs more strength) really come down to if he was better I might take him, but not to actually catch a ball with! No its, basically because it would make the player better at everything else a high movement player with dodge would do for you, mostly evolving punching people or being able to be punched because they are exposed because of an action which included someone punching someone, but never to actually make the player a more effective piece in an offensive play involving the arial transition of the ball, because that's sub optimal.

Why worry about making a better "catcher" if he is never going to be used to catch

[rolo]

Human catchers aren't terrible. They won't win Long_Bomb's next poll, "Worst catcher in the game". That'll go to Amazon catcher. They won't be Plan A on most human teams, but Plan A often fails in Blood Bowl, and if worst comes to worst, a handoff or checkdown to a fast player with Dodge isn't a bad move. They can score from three squares into the field and defenses have to respect that.

And catchers can skill up pretty well in a league. Look at this monster:
https://www.bomfur.de/obblm/index.php?s ... obj_id=874
(yes we saw him roll all those skillups, no cheating involved, just stupid amounts of luck)

Since I'm not very competitive and don't attend any tournaments, a Thrower always has a spot on my rosters.

Many (highly competitive) coaches take Throwers to tournaments, although most of the time it's to get a cheap Leader reroll and not to play the passing game.

[gjnoronh]

Something to be said for having a built in reroll if you are forced to pass.

Elf Union/Pro Elf thrower is 10K extra from a lineman for Pass and access to Leader on the first skill up. That's not bad value.

I think the Sure Hands throwers on mid to low AG teams are helpful to save rerolls early - and in case of a Strip Ball Wardancer.

I agree an extra inbuilt skill for some Throwers on some teams would help make them attractive but if you upped the cost proportionately I don't know that the cost benefit ratio would be favorable given that most teams have pass as option B.

[stowelly]

The throw-ra is great!

a +mv, sure hands skeli with leader access for 30k, bargain!

Norse thrower is something id only ever consider for the leader access.

[plasmoid]

He may well be the worst thrower (i.e. worst at throwing).
But he is far from the most useless.
In fact, I think that he is just about the only thrower were people regularly have both of them on their roster.
Many thrower positions are either 1 or even 0 on many teams.

So: Worst. But most useful. Go figure.

[Joemanji]

Just as Plasmoid says. Most Khemri teams include both Throwers at all time. Compare that to say the Norse and Orc throwers who very rarely feature.

[king_ghidra]

He may well be the worst thrower (i.e. worst at throwing).
But he is far from the most useless.
In fact, I think that he is just about the only thrower were people regularly have both of them on their roster.
Many thrower positions are either 1 or even 0 on many teams.

So: Worst. But most useful. Go figure.

Just as Plasmoid says. Most Khemri teams include both Throwers at all time. Compare that to say the Norse and Orc throwers who very rarely feature.

OP literally says all of this in his first post. Do we not read threads any more before dropping the hot takes?

To address OP's real point, I don't think the problem is the Thrower skills or statlines, it's that throwing itself is basically a scoring approach that is generally less effective and risky than a steady advance, and in the event you do need to do it, you do it with whoever you have to, Pass skill or not. So either you shake up the throwing/hand-off rules somehow or basically give up on passing passers and convert them all into pseudo-runners. And yeah a lot of passers are just taken for Sure Hands and easy Leader access these days.
In terms of zons i would rather see them razed to the ground and rebuilt completely...

[BillyDee]

I really think they should drop Pass on the Thro-ra, and replace it with a skill they might actually use, specifically, HMP...

[Joemanji]

OP literally says all of this in his first post. Do we not read threads any more before dropping the hot takes?

Alright Sassyfrass.

[plasmoid]

Ha, OK, fair enough. You got me. It was a hot take. And I was unfortunate enough to hit a thread where the title and poll had very Little to do with the actual content.

As it happens, being a tinkerer, I've given the subject a fair bit of thought in the past, and now you've triggered me

So, Long_Bomb, here it is:
1) The way the game currently works, passing will never be anyones main strategy, because usually you pass to score. And you never want to score early. No matter the team or strategy, we're all trying to score on turn 8. So throwing really isn't that popular.

2) Sure, sometimes Things go wrong, and you can find yourself in need of a reasonably reliable thower. Problem is, as a contingency plan, it costs way too much SPP and Team Value. You don't want to pour that much effort and SPPs into a player who inflates your TV and isn't using the skills most of the time.

So - IMO - number one can't be dealt with unless you really change the game. Number 2 could be dealt with by making passing a touch easier, or making a single skill which is really great for Quick(?) passes. The risk is of course that you risk making elfy teams or passing strategies super awesome - but I do have a hard time seeing that happening, due to the clock control thing.

My first thought, which I have put forward before, would be to "give an extra +1 to catching an accurate pass (not hand off, provided that not a single negative modifier applies to the catch roll".
That wouldn't help AG4 players. And in a way it would make NOS a bit more appealing.

The second thing you could do of course is to give throwers access to more interesting skills - i.e. better P skills.
Note that this wouldn't in itself make throwing better, but it could make rostering throwers more appealing.
Here are my ideas:
1. Very risky, but you could move sure hands from G to P. That would shake things up. Everyone else would then have to rely on Pro. That would probably require another skill beside Sure Hands to protect from Strip Ball, because Wood Elfs.

2. The rule change I suggested above could be linked to Pass skill. I like that better, actually. So, if you have pass, the reciever gets an extra +1 to catch, provided that no negative modifiers apply to the roll.

3. Possibly, as mentioned above, a great 1-pick option for quick passing.

4. Around the time of the creation of the CRP, I suggested this skill. It was deemed too powerful - "Chaos might take it on a doubles...." - but really? I doubt it. Anyway: "Perfect Spiral: When this player throws an accurate pass, add +1 to the Catch roll".

5. New skill: "Call audible: If this player is on the pitch, you may spend a team reroll to neutralize an opponents Blitz! or Perfect Defense roll on the kick-off table.

6. Finally, you could make Kick better - then create a P-skill that counters it. And I don't just mean Kick-Off Return.

Cheers
Martin

[Long_Bomb]

I’m sorry if you found the title misleading. I would just clarify from my slightly rambling first post that I wasn’t aiming to fix passing in the game but just hoping to make some throwers more useful on their teams without reducing the already pitiful amount of throwing in the game.

The Thro-ra is a terrible thrower but invaluable on the Khemri team and many other teams throwers with much more impressive profiles can’t really justify their place on a competitive team. Here is an example:

Orc Thrower

Problem
Low armour makes the model a liability in a blocking battle and low movement can mean it takes three turns to recover a deep kick. The Human Thrower has the same profile and cost but is faster. Orcs are also a starter set team and so need to be simple to play for beginners.

Solution
Raise movement to 6 to make them a more viable ball carrier on offence and giving them some reason to be on the team on defence beyond Sure Hands. This keeps the Pass skill for the desperation play and new players. It does however run the risk of improving a low tier 1 team a little too much but I would like to see how the new team works.

Long_Bomb by name but sadly not by nature