EUROPEN : What appened in round 3 ?

[bourpif]

original post http://teamfrancebb.positifforum.com/t5 ... iment-pass

NOTE : this is an automatic translation of my message on the french forum blood bowl. The goal is to prevent such practices so that it does not happen again in tournaments. Such behavior has nothing to do with a blood bowl table.

" Hello everyone, many of you have written me to show their support or ask me what happened on this round 3 of the europen.

Here is the story:

Round 3, we play an English team that I do not know, I play against Porky. The match goes well (if we put aside dice rolls) until the round 5-6 of the second half, where I want to rr a 1-dice. I take the time to think and then decide to use a rr, this is where my opponent tells me:
- "you have no more rr"
- "Well, I still have 2 out of 3 yet"

This is followed by a showdown where everyone stays on their positions. So I ask him to tell me at what moments in the half time I used them, to which he answers me:
- "We never really remember all the rolls"
- "Listen to me, I can tell you where you used your two rr"

We decide to call a referee who listens our arguments (especially his own because my English is not good), and the referee decides to grant me only 1 rr.

My opponent says "ok," I'm not because I'm losing a RR in the story. 5 minutes later I understand that it is useless, the referee has made his choice and time passes.

The match continues, and I have 2 turns to attack and win the match (and the round at the same time). I place several players in the scoring position, my last turn is quite simple: block 2 dice for a push, block 2 dice for a push, handoff 3+, gfi gfi.

I do both blocks, and the clock sounds when I'm going to do the handoff. My opponent tells me:
- "It's over you cannot finish your action"

I’m starting to boil, I tell him he is not serious, and call a referee (the referee who has already intervened).

The referee says:
- "The rules are the rules, at the end of time we put the goblets down"

I try to stay calm and find the words to explain that we spent 10 minutes on a problem, and that I feel able to finish my lap that requires 10 seconds.

He calls the main referee of the tournament who decides and tells me that the match is over.

…

I must confess that at that time, cup in hand, the idea of throwing it at him crossed my mind. But I keep my calm because it's not the solution.

Defeat round. I took my figs and just went away.

Thanks to the friends on the spot who supported me and to those who sent me a message. It's a total lack of respect and fair play. There is the rule of the game and not the spirit of the game.

I experienced great horrors throughout the tournament (bad dices roll or amazing opponent dices roll), but it was done in the rules of the game and the opponents were all nice and fair play. But this is just a shame.


Funny Note: the next day I play a Spanish who is rolled 6 for fame, I do 12 (lucky bastard i am) I announced fame +2. he tells me :
- "Oh no it's more than double"
- "sorry my friend, but you are wrong on this point"
- "REFEREEEEEE!"

We go to the table where we find 4 referees, we tell them the situation, they say:
- "it's MORE than double to get fame +2"

I thought I was going to blow-up ... I asked one of the referees to check the rules book and finally I was right.

We finish 4th at 2 individuals points of podium by being double bad beat on the last round but the good thing is that it benefits a for another french team : cocorico mens in blocks!

Without that it was nice.

[dreamscreator]

Funny Note: the next day I play a Spanish who is 6 to the fame, I do 12 (lucky bastard i am) I announced fame +2. he tells me :
- "Oh no it's more than double"
- "sorry myfriend, but you have twisted on this point"
- "REFEREEEEEE!"

We go to the table where we find 4 referees, we tell them the situation, they say:
- "it's MORE than double to get fame +2"

I thought I was going to fart a lead ... I asked one of the referees to check the rules book and finally I was right.

Are you sure was in the round 3. Your team plays mine in round 3 and you played Hawk that is English, the rest of the team were Spanish, maybe is for that the confusion

[bourpif]

Funny Note: the next day I play a Spanish who is 6 to the fame, I do 12 (lucky bastard i am) I announced fame +2. he tells me :
- "Oh no it's more than double"
- "sorry myfriend, but you have twisted on this point"
- "REFEREEEEEE!"

We go to the table where we find 4 referees, we tell them the situation, they say:
- "it's MORE than double to get fame +2"

I thought I was going to fart a lead ... I asked one of the referees to check the rules book and finally I was right.

Are you sure was in the round 3. Your team plays mine in round 3 and you played Hawk that is English, the rest of the team were Spanish, maybe is for that the confusion

Hello ! i played hawk at round 4 and the spanish team at round 6 ^^

[dreamscreator]

Hello ! i played hawk at round 4 and the spanish team at round 6 ^^

Ah!
Keep walking, nothing to see here

[Christy42]

Surely reroll counters solve the first issue?

I mean I have not played many competitions but I have played tabletop and it is what they are for.

I don't get it not letting an extra minute to finish a game.

Generally any card game competitions I am at want people to finish the game if possible and have 5 min overflow if they feel a game will finish in that time.

Having said that I would love to hear the other side as well.

[Twelfman]

I don't get it not letting an extra minute to finish a game.

I've only ever run small tourneys (sub 40 peeps) and can tell you when you have the timings set in stone, even a few minutes here and there can cause problems. That's only my experience from small, local events. I was only briefly involved in the planning for Eurobowl, but I can tell you that there was a staggering amount of planning that went into this event. With a tourney this big with this many people in a venue as prestigious as this means that you can't afford things to lag. A minute here turns into five minutes there, and suddenly you're off-whack for the whole day. Therefore, everyone gets the same deal - At XX:00, the game stops, cups down, end of.

[Christy42]

I don't get it not letting an extra minute to finish a game.

I've only ever run small tourneys (sub 40 peeps) and can tell you when you have the timings set in stone, even a few minutes here and there can cause problems. That's only my experience from small, local events. I was only briefly involved in the planning for Eurobowl, but I can tell you that there was a staggering amount of planning that went into this event. With a tourney this big with this many people in a venue as prestigious as this means that you can't afford things to lag. A minute here turns into five minutes there, and suddenly you're off-whack for the whole day. Therefore, everyone gets the same deal - At XX:00, the game stops, cups down, end of.

I am not saying it isn't a lot of planning. I guess it could be how it ends up described in competitions. Do you have 60 minute rounds and a harsh deadline or 55 minute rounds and give the judges an allowance to let a game run? (So your own timings assume 60 minutes per game either way). Essentially the extra minute to finish a game was accounted for scheduling so it does not destroy it, might have affected limits on rounds though.

Both probably end up the same from a time played. I am probably more used to the second(I was not privy to timing decisions in those competitions).

( I get blood bowl rounds would be longer than 60m but you get the point).

[bourpif]

First of all, i fot reroll tolken then When i rr one, i put a tolken on the turn counter so i know how many tolkens i used and at witch turn is used it.

The problem is not the time. Just that i can’t finish y turn (10seconds) cause we spend 10 minutes ln a problem ... is that bloodbowl eurobowl/europen rule ?

I l really sad about it if it is

[Joemanji]

Sorry you had this bad situation occur. Nothing can be said about the disagreement, I know you and believe you but the referee has no idea who to believe. Generally not a nice situation all round. Hopefully these kind of things don't happen, but in a large tournament of over 1200 games I guess they can.

I would hope in future the organisers take a little bit more of a light touch approach though. 2h15m was pretty tight on the round times, and they were not always starting on time anyway. I appreciate the rounds need to end sometimes it is necessary to be strict. But there are also occasions when common sense should apply. In a game where there has already been tension I think it might have been best to tread lightly.

As a member of the Eurobowl committee I'll mention this there.

[ssb]

Nothing can be said about the disagreement, I know you and believe you but the referee has no idea who to believe.

This means that this is a paradise for cheaters. (and it should not be)
As nearly all situations in a Blood Bowl game are without any outside witnesses...

Bourpif uses, in my opinion, the most secure way of counting rerolls.

He puts all his rerolls in is reserve box and when he uses them, he puts them on the turn counter, on the turn he used them (so you remember and cannot use 2 rerolls on the same turn amongst other things).

What is really incredible for me is that with this system, there is no argument.
How can you argue that it has been used if it is not on the turn counter : You say he forgot : you should have reminded him, it is your duty as his opponent. If the counter is still in the reserve box, then it is "not used".

If not played this way, then all aspects of the game can be argued, all the time.
Until the player pisses enough players that he has a referee glued to him during tournaments.

[Joemanji]

I have said I will raise the issue.

[ssb]

Just giving out details and thoughts about it.
(plus it seems bourpif is not really gifted in english, so I'm trying to fill in for Google translate...)

[fromherashes]

Bourpif uses, in my opinion, the most secure way of counting rerolls.

He puts all his rerolls in is reserve box and when he uses them, he puts them on the turn counter, on the turn he used them (so you remember and cannot use 2 rerolls on the same turn amongst other things).

Yup, that’s what I do and it should remove any confusion, especially around your example. It can still be gamed by an unscrupulous person but it’s definitelf more reliable than the other methods I’ve seen used.

[Smeborg]

bourpif - I feel for you. Such games leave a very bad taste in the mouth.

If this had been at the last World Cup in Lucca, you would have been on your own (no referees there). The Amsterdam World Cup was lovely - lots of referees, and armed with chess clocks, too (with clear rules about time). I have had a referee give a wrong ruling in a major tournament.

BB, like pretty much any game or sport, relies on a spirit of fair play. I'm not sure what can be done about cheaters. If it's in a Club, or in a small tourney, the cheater will likely be found out, or at least suspected by many. But in a large tournament, it's open season.

Some of the things that prevent cheating (and also prevent honest mistakes) are mere conventions. Examples: (a) how you deploy Re-roll counters/markers, (b) rotating players a quarter turn to signify a completed action, (c) use of dice cups. You can't force opponents to follow any of these conventions. I guess you could codify some or all of them.

Hope that helps.

[As an aside - I suggest bourpif's method of deploying Re-roll markers can be improved upon. Place the markers in a row under the turn tracks, where the original designers intended them to go - that's why it says "Re-rolls". When used, place them upside down on the unused turn track (e.g. it is turn 4 of the 1st half, you place the used Re-roll marker upside down on turn 4 of the 2nd half track). I think this method is better because the number of (unused) Re-rolls available is clear at a glance (you do not have to count markers or counters in a pile). Otherwise the method is the same.]

[bourpif]

Thank you all for your support, I hope this incident will improve this rule of time remaining in tournament taking into account each situation and not the rule simply.