Why I hate "fun"

[Mystic Force]

I would have thought there is some level of skill involved in the compensating for the "Unexpected" from a card and the knowing when to play a card, provided that cards offer equal opportunities to both coaches. If cards were so disproportionally powerful then they would be chosen as inducements more, I get the feeling people normally shun there use as an inducement.

[JPB]

I agree with most what Raveen said, but I feel this is particularly important:

You know that Blitz is a possibility so you plan for it. Cards, because there are simply more of them, are harder to plan for and therefore feel more like an arbitrary change of the flow of the game.

I think this is a very important aspect to keep in mind when trying to design cards. But not because there are so many cards but because they are hidden. (So I agree technically , I guess). But I think this is an important difference between the kick-off table (or even wizard) and cards. I called that “cards should never be unmanageable” in my guidelines. (well, originally it said "screw over"…)

If cards were so disproportionally powerful then they would be chosen as inducements more, I get the feeling people normally shun there use as an inducement.

They are probably too random for inducements. An inducement is selected to help the team, with a card you can never know what you get.

When I designed my card decks, I implemented them by saying they are generated by the staff:
This is an excerpt if you want some reading (it's fluffy , I hope)

Pre-match
There is an awful lot going on before a Blood Bowl match; press conferences are organized, terms are agreed upon (and immediately broken), stadium and playing pitch are carefully inspected (and just as carefully spiked), a referee has to be found and strapped into uniform, coach assistants are scouting (and sabotaging) the other side and cheerleaders rehears their latest dance routine, while wizards, mercenaries and other dubious characters gather in the local watering hole waiting for employment or to offer the latest collection of items and substances banned by the NAF. This turmoil of PR stunts, backroom plotting and massing of "weird accidents" is commonly known as “the rigging" and is in general as exciting and anticipated as the game itself. After all, nothing satisfies the media starved public as much as the eventful days of rigging (and speculation) before a Blood Bowl match.

Rigging
Most teams have two sets of backroom boys to rely upon.
First of all there are the coach assistants who are responsible for practice, fitness, equipment and every dirty trick they can find up their respectively dirty sleeves. It is especially their last assignment that brings those notorious “special tactics” into Blood Bowl which keep the ratings up and the NAF busy. Then there is the PR department handling the franchises day to day business such as media, sponsors and acquisitions. It is usually those guys who trigger some nasty media campaign or organize the game settings in your favour. The PR department also includes the enthralling cheerleader squad whose expert work helps immensely to gain much needed attention before the match and even more critical one during it!

During rigging you may set your coach assistants and cheerleaders into action to accumulate cards. Each card represents a Dirty trick, Magic item, PR scheme or precious shift in Momentum that is obtained, conceived, organized or inspired by one of your staff groups. Add a D6 to your total number of Coach Assistants and a D6 to your total number of Cheerleaders. Once you've done that, consult the table below for the amount of cards you may draw.
(A team without any Cheerleaders and Coach Assistants may not roll for rigging, sorry.)
1-6: No card. 7-10: 1 card. 11-15: 2 cards. 16+: 3 cards. (This makes a card roughly worth 50.000.)

Coach Assistants allow you to draw in any combination from the Dirty trick and/or Magic item deck, while Cheerleaders may draw from the Momentum deck and/or ONE card from the Public Relation deck. The coach with the higher team value draws first, otherwise roll a D6.
Note that the maximum per team is 3 Dirty trick and/or Magic Item cards (in any combination) and 3 Momentum cards of which only 1 may be a PR card. This total of three cards per staff group (only one PR card) and six cards in total may not be exceeded.
As it is far too risky to use the same trick twice, either as it might bring the wrath of the NAF upon you or because special tactics have the tendency to become rather dull if used too often, each card can be used only once, may not be stored for further matches and may also appear only once per match.

Cheering Fans and Brilliant Coaching – Using cards as re-rolls
Each card has the option to be used as a re-roll. This option follows all the rules for team re-rolls and replaces all of the card's instructions and options. However, the card does not replenish itself during half-time, but is lost once used one way or another.

Perk
Some cards have a Perk option. Perk options are used in addition to the card’s instruction and may earn a player the Celebrity skill, when the perk’s specific requirements have been met. Celebrity is a permanent skill and may be used from the moment the player has unlocked/earned it.

However, there is a lot more elements that need to be considered to make it acceptable. For example the PR Deck is the campaign deck, it includes all the SPP and winnings bonuses and all the wacky scenarios (fun/variation). While the other decks are more straightforward and competitive (knock on wood). I'm also considering that cards may need to be kept open, and not hidden. However, it is not easy to make cards in general work. The thing that intrigues me most about cards is to implement an unlimited amount of special scenarios (the PR deck) without coaches having to read them all up or having to decide on which to use, as the drawing does that for them. Which I think is probably the best use of cards. Also helps to avoid this special rules thicket of older editions.
Plus cards can help and assist story writing, if the cards are designed/written that way (i.e. a noteworthy event for the team/s). However, it is not easy to balance it, and it's probably more a "campaign thing" really.

[frogboy]

I didn't read this thread but i read the OP.

Interesting concept of fun, each to their own and all that, someone might argue that you'd have known the rules of the tournement before getting into it. That cards are on offer etc.

But yeah disappointing that the game didnt work out in the way you wanted.
I think a lot of games will end this way though with certain expectations.

I imagine the underdog quite enjoys overthrowing their superior opponent with a 6. That is most definitely fun.

I'm not great at Blood Bowl, but if i travel that far and commit to playing all day and my opponent has fun and we laugh then i call that a victory.

Its why i hate playing games vs people who dont talk, head down and win at all costs. This is definitely not fun. IMO.

BTW i think the inclusion of the frog zap spell is amazing, after all, it made me the person i am today

*All opinions are my own, no snotlings we're 'ert in this post,

[lunchmoney]

I didn't read this thread but i read the OP.

Then you missed the part where this next comment was addressed...

...someone might argue that you'd have known the rules of the tournement before getting into it. That cards are on offer etc.

...This was my tournament, the rules pack was clear, :

Just to play devil's advocate here...

your tourney rules pack (which was just the tourney thread's first post) makes zero mention of the weather table being replaced by special cards.
Yes you have always used them, but the 2018 thread says nothing.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=44330

we will be using the CRP rules with no additions (cards, phone apps, special pitch rules, modified weather tables (actually no weather tables at all Ect) with the exception noted above.

Is the only mention of weather. There is no exception mentioned "above".

[hutchinsfairy]

I have found myself arriving at a similar conclusion since our local league introduced cards for every match.

I feel like CRP Blood Bowl hits a very pleasing sweet spot of variance vs agency. The variance means that I have never lost a match before it started and that I can almost always play to win (or at least maim) for most of the match. The agency means that as I become less awful at Blood Bowl I win significantly more of my matches. When things go right I get to feel that I earned it (or at least enabled it). Even when things go wrong I can appreciate having mitigated against something worse.

What I am reasonably sure about is that the cards push the needle more towards variance and that, so far, I'm enjoying it less.

What I don't yet know is whether that is just a post-hoc rationalisation for my latent neophobia...

[Regash]

All this comes down to one thing in my mind...

Some people enjoy to PLAY the game while others seem to enjoy to WIN the game.

I enjoy playing as I make use of Orc Throwers, I show the finger to probabilities and, yeah, I do dodge with AG 3!

[plasmoid]

Just to see it from the other side:
I'd say some people like to goof off with Blood Bowl.
Others like to compete at Blood Bowl (which is not the same as winning).

The former don't like playing against the latter, because the game gets way too serious.
The latter don't like to play against the former, because they're not really being challenged if their opponent is not really trying to win.

Case in point: Stalling.
Some people feel that you shouldn't stall, because it makes the game less enjoyable.
Others feel that if you don't even try to stall, then you're not trying to win hard enough.

Cheers
Martin

[hutchinsfairy]

I think the goof vs win thing is a separate conversation.

Anyone who plays stunties is choosing to play a less winnable team but that's not the same as wanting less coach agency. Arguably, stunty coaches get to feel like they earned their victories even more than the rest of us.

[Christy42]

All this comes down to one thing in my mind...

Some people enjoy to PLAY the game while others seem to enjoy to WIN the game.

I enjoy playing as I make use of Orc Throwers, I show the finger to probabilities and, yeah, I do dodge with AG 3!

Sure but you would doubtless not enjoy simply rolling a single dice to determine the winner (or tie). This is what it felt like to the OP when they faced this card. It was game breaking and removed his feeling of being involved in the game. When you dodge with your Orc thrower you may be aware of better choices but you also know it is your choices affecting the game.

There are different degrees of luck vs skill in a game that people like. When it is changed they enjoy the game less. You can happily enjoy the game no matter your opinion on this scale whether or not you win. There is no right way (and playing to compete is different to playing only win only)!

Having said that some might like more randomness than traditional blood bowl and this competition would cater to those people. Just not the op which seems fair enough to me.

[Darkson]

It was hardly "game breaking". It gave his opponent an advantage, maybe to much of an advantage, but it wasn't game breaking.

Gake-breaking would be something like "Play this card after the last turn. Add as many Touchdowns as you need to win by 1."And if that card existed, I seriously doubt Glowworm would use it.

[Mystic Force]

I think that *most* tournaments should not use cards, it is a condensed set up, to crown a champion, things should be kept streamlined for the sake of strangers playing each others.

I think *most* leagues should use cards as variety increasers. As they are part of a narrative event with grudges, replays and evolving storylines. More about the journey than the destination.

I think there is room for the opposite in both, some (lesser number of) tournaments that use cards and similar differntiators, and some leagues, but less than a majority, of hard nose winner take all ultimate champion, reduced variability style.

Tournaments are by their nature already more restrictive (no development, fixed TVs facing off against each other). Leagues have can have widely different levels of teams facing off against each other, and likely coach experience, in the case of there being a bunch of rookies, I would probably scale back the card use too, so that they can learn fundamentals, but it never did me any harm with 3rd ed, and some of my favorite memories looking back was when you pulled of the unexpected, thanks to a little magic or dirty trick...

Given my choice of playing BB I would stick to my above listed preferences. I would participate in the other type of event/league if there was not a choice, but I would know that was what I was doing and adjust expectations accordingly.

[Heff]

All this comes down to one thing in my mind...

Some people enjoy to PLAY the game while others seem to enjoy to WIN the game.

I enjoy playing as I make use of Orc Throwers, I show the finger to probabilities and, yeah, I do dodge with AG 3!

Look at my record, look at the teams I play, then decide if I want to PLAY or WIN. For me Cards turn it into a game I do not want to PLAY or WIN! I suppose I would rather play bloodbowl than Top Trumps or Snap.

[Heff]

It was hardly "game breaking". It gave his opponent an advantage, maybe to much of an advantage, but it wasn't game breaking.

Gake-breaking would be something like "Play this card after the last turn. Add as many Touchdowns as you need to win by 1."And if that card existed, I seriously doubt Glowworm would use it.

Broke the game for me. I suddenly not only had no interest in the game but actively did not want to play it. But as I have said before that is just the taster for the meat of the post which was that cards prioritise "Fun" over fun.

[Heff]

Case in point: Stalling.
Some people feel that you shouldn't stall, because it makes the game less enjoyable.
Others feel that if you don't even try to stall, then you're not trying to win hard enough.

Cheers
Martin

Not stalling is an insult! what you are saying is that I am SO bad at the game that you can give me the ball and STILL beat me!

[nonumber]

I was thinking about this the other day when a friend stated he thought cards "break the game". Personally I think that we don't use cards and inducements enough in tournament play.

Blood Bowl is a ridiculous game where fantasy creatures that were doing battle for centuries for some reason dropped their battle axes in favour of american football, where shady characters and rogue wizards and insane fans try to gain an unfair advantage for one side or the other. There's doping and cheating and bribes... underhanded tactics are woven into the fabric of the game. Take for example the Bright Crusaders who are an exception to the rule because they DON'T cheat.

What we've done in tournament play is ignored this narrative and rendered down the wacky aspects of the game, and it's themes, to a relatively formulaic (yet still in fairness dice dependant) game of let's all column Dark Elves. Sure it's still fun, otherwise I wouldn't attend tournaments, none of us would, but I think we're kind of losing the point of this game sometimes. In fact take this discussion over cards and step into the narrative for a second- what we're basically saying is doping an opponent with a love potion is a no-no but a Goblin wielding a ball and chain twice his size or a Dwarf riding a combine harvester until such time as the ref notices, which is for some reason only when a touchdown is scored, is absolutely fine.

Should they be used every turn? Of course not, the game becoming a whirling vortex of random events every turn would be unfit for a tournament setting. But a scenario where both players had one relatively evenly balanced joker to pull at some point in the game would, in my opinion, keep the essence of the game alive without making it completely random.

Remember these aspects are in the rule book, they are intended to be a part of the game as a part of it's DNA and themes. We then removed them, or ignored them, for tournament usage, not the other way around - it's not the crazed work of a few lunatics that put them back IN.