Monthly Poll: Is Blood Bowl Tabletop "New Player Friendly"?

[Heff]

And yes I know "play better"

[stowelly]

I have had the run of the game. You are struggling to do anything. I will sit over here with the ball while hunting down any of your players with a skill and foul them until they are dead. Oh what a shame your next three games are exactly the same.

That and the fact that leagues are dominated by a few teams that have survived to have over 2k team value and just run around bullying the chaff they come up against put me off online play.

I really haven't had that experience, granted ive only been playing blood bowl for a year, but apart from the few people who get their enjoyment from picking new coaches / favourable matches (this really is a bit shit for new players) I haven't seen any of the things you have mentioned!

What leagues are you talking about? Ive been in the 145, WIL, HUBBA and CIBBL and in all of them everyone has seemed welcoming to new coaches and had people even take the time post match to write up a significant amount of advice!

[Heff]

145 and the feeder league of White Isle are the only league on Fummbl where I have not had it happen. (the mega teams not the fouling, Fouling happens everywhere). Was in the 3db highlander which I loved. Started team 1 in the top division and was mullered until I built it up. Started team 2 in the middle and was catapulted into the top...where I was mullered. Started team 3 in the middle of five. after 8 games was catapulted into the top where...I played 1 game and quit because there is no point in playing a 9 game team in a league division where every other team has played 40+ and has 6-800 tv on you. particularly when they just sit with the ball and hunt down your 1 skill "Star".

Every 100 in tv is 5 skills, 500 tv is 25 skills. you will lose.

Short format leagues with plentiful resets and tournaments is where it is for me. That means tabletop.

[Heff]

Also get a copy of CRP and ignore GW until they PUBLISH THE WHOLE BLOODY RULEBOOK

[RoterSternHochdahl]

An outside view:

(...) as it stands, it is currently the least accessible game we’ve looked at on the blog, stealing that dubious honour from Tales of the Arabian Nights. As one of my absolute favourites, it’s sad to see.

https://meeplelikeus.co.uk/blood-bowl-2 ... -teardown/

[sann0638]

Short format leagues with plentiful resets and tournaments is where it is for me. That means tabletop.

Or Fumbbl NAF tournaments!

[faust_33]

Interesting discussions. I think if you look at it from the perspective of "Can it easily be taught to new players?", then it is pretty doable. With any game, that really depends on the teacher though. I'm in a (traditional) boardgame group, and we rarely play the same game twice. It's opened my eyes to the art of teaching a game to new players in a short amount of time.

Some people are really good at that, but certain teaching styles work better for some people.

With Blood Bowl, someone taught me the game. It sounds like that is the case for most people, and I liken that to how people get into war-games and rpgs. After initial exposure to rpgs, I then went on to teach myself other rpgs. I was the gamemaster for most of them, and in turn taught others how to play.

However, from an 'everyday person' point of view, I wouldn't call Blood Bowl "new player friendly". Even with my background in rpgs, it took me a couple games to get the hang of Blood Bowl. Blocking and assists mainly. I had to keep asking "So this guy gets how many block dice? 1 die? Ok!". Even longer to understand the strategies and get decent at the game (no, I won't be winning any tournaments anytime soon!).

I love the game, but I think the fairly complicated rules would be off-putting to someone who just wants to buy a box and play. Combine that with the miniature assembly, and the fact that it is even harder to tell the pieces apart without painting them. I think it is a good game for someone who has had prior experience to boardgames (especially war-games), the computer game(s), and/or rpgs. It might be interesting to have a related Survey question next month on how people learned Blood Bowl.

[TheAzman]

145 and the feeder league of White Isle are the only league on Fummbl where I have not had it happen. (the mega teams not the fouling, Fouling happens everywhere). Was in the 3db highlander which I loved. Started team 1 in the top division and was mullered until I built it up. Started team 2 in the middle and was catapulted into the top...where I was mullered. Started team 3 in the middle of five. after 8 games was catapulted into the top where...I played 1 game and quit because there is no point in playing a 9 game team in a league division where every other team has played 40+ and has 6-800 tv on you. particularly when they just sit with the ball and hunt down your 1 skill "Star".

Every 100 in tv is 5 skills, 500 tv is 25 skills. you will lose.

Short format leagues with plentiful resets and tournaments is where it is for me. That means tabletop.

I know how you feel. I was in the 3DB Highlander league this season. I was checking out the teams in your division and I agree that it would have been impossible to do anything but die against those teams. I don’t know why they think it’s a good idea to match up such wildly mismatched teams for matches. Even with inducements your team will hardly come out unscathed. I’m bowing out of future seasons and will look for alternative leagues but tabletop is what I would rather do.

[Heff]

145 and the feeder league of White Isle are the only league on Fummbl where I have not had it happen. (the mega teams not the fouling, Fouling happens everywhere). Was in the 3db highlander which I loved. Started team 1 in the top division and was mullered until I built it up. Started team 2 in the middle and was catapulted into the top...where I was mullered. Started team 3 in the middle of five. after 8 games was catapulted into the top where...I played 1 game and quit because there is no point in playing a 9 game team in a league division where every other team has played 40+ and has 6-800 tv on you. particularly when they just sit with the ball and hunt down your 1 skill "Star".

Every 100 in tv is 5 skills, 500 tv is 25 skills. you will lose.

Short format leagues with plentiful resets and tournaments is where it is for me. That means tabletop.

I know how you feel. I was in the 3DB Highlander league this season. I was checking out the teams in your division and I agree that it would have been impossible to do anything but die against those teams. I don’t know why they think it’s a good idea to match up such wildly mismatched teams for matches. Even with inducements your team will hardly come out unscathed. I’m bowing out of future seasons and will look for alternative leagues but tabletop is what I would rather do.

They recognise the issue but are between the cleft stick of not feeling able to tell people to retire their killer teams and watching the league die. This is why I like the redraft rules although no doubt they would also come unstuck at some point as online is a fast way to break any solution to an issue. Pile On was only ever a problem online. Killer teams who have played 400 games, only a problem online. The game is designed to play 20 to 30 games with a team maximum and then you get bored and start again.

For me the solution is simple with the Highlander, simple but unpopular. You let people play the same race as often as you like, and you have a hard reset every 3 seasons. And you implement the redraft rules. probably do the redraft first and see if that cures it.

[TheAzman]

145 and the feeder league of White Isle are the only league on Fummbl where I have not had it happen. (the mega teams not the fouling, Fouling happens everywhere). Was in the 3db highlander which I loved. Started team 1 in the top division and was mullered until I built it up. Started team 2 in the middle and was catapulted into the top...where I was mullered. Started team 3 in the middle of five. after 8 games was catapulted into the top where...I played 1 game and quit because there is no point in playing a 9 game team in a league division where every other team has played 40+ and has 6-800 tv on you. particularly when they just sit with the ball and hunt down your 1 skill "Star".

Every 100 in tv is 5 skills, 500 tv is 25 skills. you will lose.

Short format leagues with plentiful resets and tournaments is where it is for me. That means tabletop.

I know how you feel. I was in the 3DB Highlander league this season. I was checking out the teams in your division and I agree that it would have been impossible to do anything but die against those teams. I don’t know why they think it’s a good idea to match up such wildly mismatched teams for matches. Even with inducements your team will hardly come out unscathed. I’m bowing out of future seasons and will look for alternative leagues but tabletop is what I would rather do.

They recognise the issue but are between the cleft stick of not feeling able to tell people to retire their killer teams and watching the league die. This is why I like the redraft rules although no doubt they would also come unstuck at some point as online is a fast way to break any solution to an issue. Pile On was only ever a problem online. Killer teams who have played 400 games, only a problem online. The game is designed to play 20 to 30 games with a team maximum and then you get bored and start again.

For me the solution is simple with the Highlander, simple but unpopular. You let people play the same race as often as you like, and you have a hard reset every 3 seasons. And you implement the redraft rules. probably do the redraft first and see if that cures it.

I agree with a hard reset every three seasons. I also agree that CLAWPOMB was only ever a problem online with people playing hundreds of games with the same team. I actually find that incredibly boring, but extremely hard to play against. I only play online because tabletop opponents are a little hard to come by lately.

[rolo]

As a coach who plays online, I feel like I ought to speak up now and stand up for online play. (I feel like we've had this discussion before, but not really in the context of how friendly they are to new players).

Keep in mind that there are a LOT of options for online play in both of the major platforms (FumBBL and BB2; BB1 is a ghost town now).
People have this attitude that "Online means you play nothing but 3000 TV killers with all ClawPOMB every game; Tabletop means nothing but friendly and relaxed games over beer and pretzels". There's a grain of truth behind those but not much more than a grain.

There are all sorts of different leagues online, including leagues which play a limited number of games and then start over with rookie teams. Or anything else you can do on tabletop. I guess the confusion might come from the fact that the default leagues a new player join - Ranked on FumBBL, "Cabalvision Official League" on BB2 - do have highly experienced teams. But those leagues also have mechanisms to prevent such teams from getting matched up against newly rolled rookies! And there's nothing forcing anyone to play in that environment anyway.

About the worst you can say about online leagues is "There do exist resources like the 145 League on FumBBL, but a new coach may not find them instantly". Fair, but not exactly a reason to make blanket statements like "Online play isn't newbie friendly".

[Regash]

The worst problem I encounter when introducing new people to BB is the skills and how they work.
And almost all of the newbies have difficulties with that.

"Ha! I rolled Defender Stumbles, you go down."
"No, this one has Dodge."

"I got this guy to mark yours, so I get to roll 2 dice, right?"
"No, that one has Guard."

"My player has Strip Ball, so the ball comes free."
"No, my player has Sure Hands."

This skill and counterskill thing is very confusing for some.
True, doesn't come up in the first game but this is where most new people shake their heads.

[Heff]

As a coach who plays online, I feel like I ought to speak up now and stand up for online play. (I feel like we've had this discussion before, but not really in the context of how friendly they are to new players).

Keep in mind that there are a LOT of options for online play in both of the major platforms (FumBBL and BB2; BB1 is a ghost town now).
People have this attitude that "Online means you play nothing but 3000 TV killers with all ClawPOMB every game; Tabletop means nothing but friendly and relaxed games over beer and pretzels". There's a grain of truth behind those but not much more than a grain.

There are all sorts of different leagues online, including leagues which play a limited number of games and then start over with rookie teams. Or anything else you can do on tabletop. I guess the confusion might come from the fact that the default leagues a new player join - Ranked on FumBBL, "Cabalvision Official League" on BB2 - do have highly experienced teams. But those leagues also have mechanisms to prevent such teams from getting matched up against newly rolled rookies! And there's nothing forcing anyone to play in that environment anyway.

About the worst you can say about online leagues is "There do exist resources like the 145 League on FumBBL, but a new coach may not find them instantly". Fair, but not exactly a reason to make blanket statements like "Online play isn't newbie friendly".

I think that the real issue is that online you get much less "feedback" from the other player. you have a screen and a commentary box. You do not have the person at the other side of the table looking at you sympathetically as he fouls your fourth player, you can see that the other guy is not coping emotionally with the game and can reign it in (if you are feeling empathic) or punch the bruise (if you are not). Online it is difficult to judge this accurately.

To pick up on Ragash's point as well. Online nobody will talk you through the mechanics, and the machine does them for you. I know a couple of experienced online coaches who are struggling because they do not understand innately the mechanics of the game, how dodges work through tackle zones, how to calculate blocking because the computer does it all for them. Great idea of how to position etc, no idea of how to play within the turns as it were.

Personally I don't think that l am really able to emotionally cope online (people at tournaments will tell you that I am emotionally unable to cope on a table either- but online really brings it out). The frustrations of bloodbowl are multiplied on a screen for me. I am unable to cope with the fall of the dice if I am not rolling them (and not always when I am!) If you add to this the unfair matchups, the fact that I am not really very good, and that I am mindnumbingly unlucky, you can see why I am not a good fit for online.

[Tzalaran]

my experience as a new to TT player with the 2016 rerelease is this game is plenty new player friendly, the problem is the cost of getting a variety of teams you can play at the start. i was lucky and able to splurge on my initial entry and get about 15 teams total, but for someone without that flexibility, the initial box and what it comes with would be very limiting.

my sons and nephew are learning just fine on TT, and are expanding into BB2 and fumbbl play well. they enjoy TT games on Sundays more than their online matches tho...

[cornixt]

The terminology could be easier.
"Your blocker player doesn't need the Block skill to perform a block action."
Same confusion with Pass, Catch, blitz, Dodge.
I guess we are lucky that Sure Feet isn't called Move.