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Monthly Poll: Do you use the Illegal Procedure rule?
Poll ended at Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:08 am
Yes, all the time. 10%  10%  [ 7 ]
Sometimes or only when it's enforced. 11%  11%  [ 8 ]
No, not at all. 79%  79%  [ 58 ]
Total votes : 73
 
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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:02 am 
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I learned the rule in the third ed days, when it would cause a turnover if you didn't have a reroll. It was harsh and cost people games sometimes, but it also made us all very good about moving our turn marker. Now that there is less penalty (or none in many cases), I notice that I have become much more forgetful about the turn marker.

Keeping the turn markers set correctly is an important part of the game -- in an environment where more turns likely means more SPP and more team development, making sure that everyone has an equal number of chances helps maintain competitive balance. I've always thought that incentivizing both players to be sure the turn marker is correct was a clever way to ensure this. In essence, the opposing coach becomes the referee, who will call you out if you start moving without updating the turn.

That said, I'm sure we all know of cases where someone was turned away from the game by this rule. I always tried to be gentle with new coaches and give them multiple warnings before I ever enforced it, but we all know "that guy" who hawks the turn marker and uses it as punitively as possible. Blood Bowl without IP is a friendlier game, if occasionally longer than normal.

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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:07 am 
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Could be interesting to try something of less importance as motivation. Maybe +10k gold if you call illegal procedure? Maybe an additional bribe or free foul?


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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:25 pm 
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I use neither IP for forgotten turn markers nor do we use the 4 min rule. I agree with the turn marker rule. But I would very much like the 4 min rule. The games become more interesting if there is also an aspect of hectic. And I also dont like 3h games. But obviously I am the only one...


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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:34 am 
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Our club, The Thursday Night Hero's use the rule as it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:02 pm 
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Milo wrote:
I learned the rule in the third ed days, when it would cause a turnover if you didn't have a reroll. It was harsh and cost people games sometimes, but it also made us all very good about moving our turn marker. Now that there is less penalty (or none in many cases), I notice that I have become much more forgetful about the turn marker.


Ah, so that was the 3e rule. I recalled playing it that way the first few times when I was being taught the game. I had decided Blood Bowl was a dumb game though, and didn't play it again for a long time. At that point, I found the CRP rules and taught myself how to play. I figured we had played IP wrong earlier, as I didn't have a copy of the 3e rules. All makes sense now.

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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:01 pm 
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The 3rd ed rule was daft, and I know it turned people off the game, at least till we stopped using it.
Thing, I see people, like Milo above, saying it's very important rule as it teaches people to take note of their turn, and yet there are other games where keeping track of turns, for example Dreadball, that don't have this harsh rule and yet get played just fine.

BB doesn't need it, and never needed it.

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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:35 pm 
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I know you are using it as just one example, but Dreadball is a different beast. In Dreadball you only have about half as many players and turns end up a lot faster. I find it was a lot less complicated than your standard Blood Bowl tabletop turn, and therefore easier to remember your turns. I don't remember how punishing turnovers are in Dreadball, but that would be another factor.

In Blood Bowl, it sometimes gets to that point where both sides are fighting to get the ball (usually when rerolls have been exhausted), and a quick turnover can really get you amped up to start your turn. At least it does with me, as the tension starts to mount. Opponent fails that pickup or something, and I just want to pounce in and get the ball the last few squares over to the end zone. That's the situation where either massive anxiety forces me to move that turn marker first....or makes me totally forget it. And yea, if you're playing with the IP rule...your opponent is probably holding their breath waiting for that screw up.

Anyways, what I was getting at...is that the anxiety of flipping to your turn and then thinking about what things you better do first, which people to block, how to protect the ball, and all the other factors, seem to be multiplied by a 1000 compared to what I experienced in Dreadball. Also the longer game means you are more likely to get mental fatigued, and again forget to move the turn marker. Though, typically if I get in the habit of it the first half, then I probably will be on robot mode in the second.

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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:39 am 
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faust_33 wrote:
In Blood Bowl, it sometimes gets to that point where both sides are fighting to get the ball (usually when rerolls have been exhausted), and a quick turnover can really get you amped up to start your turn. At least it does with me, as the tension starts to mount. Opponent fails that pickup or something, and I just want to pounce in and get the ball the last few squares over to the end zone. That's the situation where either massive anxiety forces me to move that turn marker first....or makes me totally forget it. And yea, if you're playing with the IP rule...your opponent is probably holding their breath waiting for that screw up.


This is my big argument against it... it's a metagame, immersion-breaking effect most likely to happen when players are most immersed in the game. And, for the most part, unnecessary. I've almost never gone more than one turn down the road before one of the coaches realized that the turn marker hadn't been moved last turn, and on the rare occasion that happens, we still figured it out before it caused a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:43 am 
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Baxx wrote:
Could be interesting to try something of less importance as motivation. Maybe +10k gold if you call illegal procedure? Maybe an additional bribe or free foul?


Yea, as an alternative from just throwing the rule out, I kind of like those ideas. You could also incentivize coaches by giving .5k for every time they remember to move their turn marker.

It sounds like a lot of people just hate that rule, growing up on it I've always felt it's part of Blood Bowl, just like fouling is. Not saying it's not harsh, just what I got used to. Though from playing online, I can't say I felt like anything was missing by not having it.

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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:16 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
The 3rd ed rule was daft, and I know it turned people off the game, at least till we stopped using it.
Thing, I see people, like Milo above, saying it's very important rule as it teaches people to take note of their turn, and yet there are other games where keeping track of turns, for example Dreadball, that don't have this harsh rule and yet get played just fine.

BB doesn't need it, and never needed it.


This.

My friends and I play for fun. We don't bust each other's balls about moving the turn marker. We keep an eye out for each other and let each other know if we forgot to move it. If it gets missed, we stop real quick to figure it out. Simple.

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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:33 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
The 3rd ed rule was daft, and I know it turned people off the game, at least till we stopped using it.
Thing, I see people, like Milo above, saying it's very important rule as it teaches people to take note of their turn...


Ah, no. I said that keeping the turn counters updated was important. And I said that it was sort of clever to incentivize the coaches to do so, via the IP rule. I didn't say the Illegal Procedure rule itself was important. I recognize that the IP rule (especially 3rd Ed) has a lot of negative impacts as well.

I think it was a clever idea that wasn't thought through very carefully.

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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:51 pm 
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And I was talking about the whole "penalised for not moving a marker" rule being daft. Amazing how other games get played without needing a rule like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:21 pm 
Legend
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Darkson wrote:
The 3rd ed rule was daft, and I know it turned people off the game, at least till we stopped using it.
Thing, I see people, like Milo above, saying it's very important rule as it teaches people to take note of their turn, and yet there are other games where keeping track of turns, for example Dreadball, that don't have this harsh rule and yet get played just fine.

BB doesn't need it, and never needed it.



Well, have you EVER played in a league with about 30 coaches crammed into a small space, and its loud, and people just forget to move their turn marker and then, oh, well, my games F'ed up, and who cares, because Blood Bowl, according to some Brithish guy, does'nt Need that rule, and NEVER, EVER IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, HAS NEEDED IT.

Mean to say, JJ put it there for a very important reason, right?

And BTW, I play in a league with over 20 coaches and it sucks to forget to move your turn marker.

Does the rule turn people away? I highly doubt it. Look, if some new guy likes the IDEA of fantasy races kinda sorta playing football, he is gonna stick around and play reguardless of that stupid rule. I've played the game since it first hit the American market, and suffered through First Edition, Long winded Second edition, and the joy that is/was 3rd ed. I have never seen someone say, "so let me get this straight: I forget to move this marker along each turn, and it costs me a re roll? This game blows. Its not for me. Where's my coat?"

That does'nt happen. I wait all a-tither for some real examples of this happening...

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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:06 pm 
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bound for glory wrote:
Well, have you EVER played in a league with about 30 coaches crammed into a small space, and its loud, and people just forget to move their turn marker and then, oh, well, my games F'ed up, and who cares, because Blood Bowl, according to some Brithish guy, does'nt Need that rule, and NEVER, EVER IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, HAS NEEDED IT.

Nope, but I've played in a room with over 300 coaches, so what's your point.

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I have never seen someone say, "so let me get this straight: I forget to move this marker along each turn, and it costs me a re roll? This game blows. Its not for me. Where's my coat?"

That does'nt happen. I wait all a-tither for some real examples of this happening...

We've had at least 2 guys here over the years (since early 2000s), one when we played the rules "as is" who never came back, one that had read the rules and was moaning about them, before he found out that we'd already house-ruled it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Monthly Poll: Illegal Procedure
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:59 pm 
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OK SIMON, so what you are telling all who care to listen, is "a friend walked out after being enraged and at a total loss for any other reason to look further into this great game of ours, do I have that right? This guy comes in, pulls up a chair, picks some agreeable dice, maybe gets a adult bevearge(or not. Mean to say, he may have been a toddler, for all we know), looks over the nicely painted miniatures(again, or not. I've been painting miniatures since 1977, and I am bearly "passable".) and jumps up, maybe cusses you(I presume you were showing this guy the ropes)out and goes to the door in a very definate and forceful manner. Right?

OK Mate :lol:

I believe you. I remember when 3rd ed came out and I was showing a guy the game, and after being told REPEATEDLY TO MOVE HIS TURN MARKER, he got pissed and sucker punched me.

Still got the chipped tooth to this day. 8)

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