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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:09 am 
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Fair enough, I apologize for not remembering your points accurately and not bothering to read back :-)

To sum up: Doom Diver and Zzap might be sub optimal but are equally fun and thus positive additions.

Hooligan however is too bloaty to ever be wortwhile. I guess the counter argument here is that he fits in a fluff perspective and can give the hilarity of +3 pitch invasion. I agree he would sabotage the goblins competetively, but it is that really a big deal? Goblins, fist and foremost, is a fun team.

As for removing loner: I did play goblins in a league for some time, and removing loner from the Trolls would be my number 1 wish. No safe 1st move was frustrating to play with. Then again: Such a change would be on the "radical" side and I am happy the new release generally have been cautious to change stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:27 pm 
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+1 to Garion's last post (though I'd add that I'd consider the Ooligan for tournament play as well).

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:16 pm 
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garion wrote:
What I find really bizarre is this addition sees the introduction of Character coach inducements. Surely 'Ooligan would be a better fit here, as some fan that gets on the pitch at goblins games and helps out, rather than a rostered option. This a sports team after all. It could be written as such (although I'm sure with some thought better wording would be chosen) -
Infamous Coaches
'Ooligan - 70k
'Ooligan sneaks in to your dug out before the game starts and offers his services
'Ooligan is added to your roster for this game only and can take part just like a normal player.

'Ooligan 6237 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Fan Favourite, Disturbing Presence.

^ this way you wouldn't nonesensically have an Ooligan on the roster, and he might see the occasional use when you are a huge TV underdog. Its much better than a Merc for the same cost.


That acctually seems reasonable. May be you should try to put out your thoughts somewhere GW may be able to see them (where is it, actually? They doesn't seem to have any kinds of "feedback email" features, or BB official forums..)? Do they care at all about feedback?


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:05 pm 
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Mori-mori wrote:
garion wrote:
What I find really bizarre is this addition sees the introduction of Character coach inducements. Surely 'Ooligan would be a better fit here, as some fan that gets on the pitch at goblins games and helps out, rather than a rostered option. This a sports team after all. It could be written as such (although I'm sure with some thought better wording would be chosen) -
Infamous Coaches
'Ooligan - 70k
'Ooligan sneaks in to your dug out before the game starts and offers his services
'Ooligan is added to your roster for this game only and can take part just like a normal player.

'Ooligan 6237 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Fan Favourite, Disturbing Presence.

^ this way you wouldn't nonesensically have an Ooligan on the roster, and he might see the occasional use when you are a huge TV underdog. Its much better than a Merc for the same cost.


That actually seems reasonable. May be you should try to put out your thoughts somewhere GW may be able to see them (where is it, actually? They doesn't seem to have any kinds of "feedback email" features, or BB official forums..)? Do they care at all about feedback?


They do not have forums or feedback places like the newsgroups they used to a long time ago. Though these weren't really GWs, they just used to visit dedicated newsgroups for feedback. Such as Blood Bowl newsgroups, necromunda etc.. and this is how the BBRC was formed basically. JJ popped in from time to time to see what was going on (not often though). Neoliminal asked if he could help JJ out, collecting questions, positioning them to JJ and getting answers which he gave back to the community. JJ liked the idea and after a couple of PMs back and forth, JJ decided to make the BBRC. He appointed Neoliminal the leader back then, and Neo (John Lewis) picked the original members - Chet, Milo, Dean, Babs, Andy.

This place is the best forum for making the play test group aware of any issues you have really. They are in contact with the people in GW that are writing the rules. The main problem with 2016 edition is the rules were started before contacting old BBRC members. It should have been the other way round. The play test group have also stated many times GW reps do read forums and try and sort through the nonsense for useful feedback when they can. There will be GW lurkers I'm sure.

There is also Facebook but imo Walls are just noise, and not a good environments for discussion or feedback that is insightful/constructive.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:28 am 
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garion wrote:
They do not have forums or feedback places like the newsgroups they used to a long time ago. Though these weren't really GWs, they just used to visit dedicated newsgroups for feedback. Such as Blood Bowl newsgroups, necromunda etc.. and this is how the BBRC was formed basically. JJ popped in from time to time to see what was going on (not often though). Neoliminal asked if he could help JJ out, collecting questions, positioning them to JJ and getting answers which he gave back to the community. JJ liked the idea and after a couple of PMs back and forth, JJ decided to make the BBRC. He appointed Neoliminal the leader back then, and Neo (John Lewis) picked the original members - Chet, Milo, Dean, Babs, Andy.


For historical accuracy, Jervis contacted both JKL and I initially. I ran bloodbowl.net and administered the BBOWL-L mailing list, which was the primary discussion vehicle for Blood Bowl at the time. I had also hosted a chat with Jervis, feedback from which was the main reason he reversed course on the One Skill Per Action "gold edition" of the rules. I recommended Dean (who created the BBOWL-L before he handed admin responsibilities to me), as well as Chet and Babs, who were two of the best known and most respected posters in that group. Andy worked for GW and was picked by Jervis.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Yes sorry I should have clarified, obviously Andy and JJ were/are part of GW staff.

Interesting post from you though Milo. To be clear I am not disagreeing with your version of events here - I just knew that info from an interview I did with JKL for an article a while ago -

Quote:
GLN: How did you get involved in the BBRC between LRB1 and LRB5?

JKL: I was on a newsgroup dedicated to Blood Bowl and at the time Jervis would come and go as he could, which wasn't much. I noticed it was all too much for him so I offered to be his front man on the newsgroup, collecting questions and giving them to him all at once and then returning the answers. He liked the idea and after a couple of posts he came up with the idea for the BBRC.

Here's something I've never shared before. I was actually responsible for picking the first online members. I never spoke of this before because there was already so much tension in those days. Too many disagreements about different rules. It was a hard decision process because as he had outlined it, we would be looking over the entire rules set and fixing problems we found there.

I purposely choose some members because I didn't agree with them, but I respected their knowledge and enjoyment of the game. Chet and I fought like cats and dogs online, but he knew his stuff and I never regretted bringing him on. I also had to cut one of my friends from the short list because we were from the same league and I wanted a range of experiences. I would often consult with him about some ideas because he was really the best player I have ever seen, but I couldn't include him. (His name is Doug Webber.)

I also made sure to bring in players from around the world where possible.

As the group evolved from consultants to full blown developers it taxed our time greatly. Debates were often backed as much by anecdotes as by statistics. Playtesting happened in our own leagues.

So it all started with a simple email to Jervis Johnson, who I respect greatly for his even handed game design and his ability to muster disparate opinions.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Mori-mori wrote:
Baxx wrote:
Mori-mori wrote:
Checked em.. So, aside from relatively few new optional rules (stadiums, referees, sponsorship etc), it's like mostly the same content, with some adjustments to certain skills and star players, and a LOT of fluff and arts. Well.. I guess I'll wait for some discounts :3

You want to make a point about relative few changes and only mention a few changes, ignoring stuff like rostered star players, (In)Famous Coaching Staff, new Star Players, new team positionals and Hall of Fame teams. Don't under-represent the content to try make a point it's mostly the same content. It's not. The book is packet with new stuff.

..most of which are optional, if I got it right. Then some of changes are mere renamings, and sure there a some additions (though relatively to content existing since CRP percentage of those is very low; like, may be, 10-15% of the text). And those additions.. Sure do add some variety, but, again, a part of them are just not that significant.

And to name those few which are big deal, IMO, there is [almost] full list: Piling On requires a TRR (really big one), change to wizards (not very big, wizard always was a situational thing), Special Play cards (haven't checked them properly yet, but have a hunch they reuse a lot of content from CRP's cards), MVP random from 3 players (well..okay..), Expensive Mistakes (moderate change), Offseason & Redrafting (moderate change)

You pushing the goal-post here? There were no criterias of "non-optional", but now there suddenly is? Every single rule in Blood Bowl is optional. In fact, the entire game is. The fact of the matter is: DZ2 is packed with new content.

Special play cards are not part of DZ2.

Here are more game changing big changes of new content to BB2016:

-additional kick-off table!
-2 new weather tables!
-new special ball rules
-bunch of new inducements
-bunch of new star players
-new skills
-changes to existing teams (cost, skills, positionals)
-24 match events + team specific match events

Mori-mori wrote:
Still, again, they are marked as optional too (too much optional stuff, like if GW are not sure themselve whether it will be of any good)

There's just been a long discussion about the opposite, not enough of the new stuff is not optional. Seems like no matter what they could have done, there will always be complaints.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Baxx wrote:
Here are more game changing big changes of new content to BB2016:

-additional kick-off table!
-2 new weather tables!
-new special ball rules
-bunch of new inducements
-bunch of new star players
-new skills
-changes to existing teams (cost, skills, positionals)
-24 match events + team specific match events


Are we counting the Blood Bowl 'My Dugout' app as well? If so that adds even more content such as more star players and inducements (one per team) and most notably the four new teams: Human Nobility, Savage Orcs, Slayer Hold, and Pestilent Vermin.

Also about those new teams, has there been any news from Games Workshop / the specialist team about them since they came out? Have they gotten any feedback on them as they are meant to be 'testing' teams from the 'Bob Bifford Give-It-A-Shot Programme'. I haven't seem much mention of them outside of the large discussion Human Nobility made when it came out.

Would be interesting to see them revised from feedback or otherwise included in a later Death Zone and what will become of them seeing as Games Workshop doesn't seem to want to change existing teams and rules that much. Seems these testing teams and the 'optional' rules are a way to expand and side-step the issue by keeping the core the same, but it would be good to have new official teams.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:29 am 
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It's been very silent around these teams. Savage Orcs and Human Nobility have been discussed in detail in one or two podcasts. I've tested Savage Orcs and they are fun. There have been some critics against the other teams, specially 4 guard blitzers on human nobility team. I would like to see these teams go official, maybe in a later Death Zone.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:41 pm 
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garion wrote:
Is there any chance of a 2nd Troll coming out at some point. I quite like the 1st (though i seem to be in the minority here), but having 2 on the pitch in a throwing pose looks really bad. I think if we could get a 2nd version i think it would sell really well.

At the Full Beard Cup Andy said the next items they have coming out, hopefully all by Christmas, are:
  • Second Troll - Two hands over his head to crush people on the line
  • Mino - as pictures
  • Helmet Wulf Star Player
  • Elf Union team - Fully modular with interchangeable arms/heads and separate face masks. Two of the line players are female
  • Goblin Cantankerous Contraptions - Dive Bomber, Pogo and 'ooligan (who is not a Fan but a special Goblin)
  • Goblin Pitch (second side is a flooded design with rules for pitch flooding during play and you flip it over at half time)
  • Team Card Pack (one per race; 44 cards) Player Cards for each position/Star, blanks for tracking player development and extra Special Play Cards

He now has two sculptors working on BB and they should be releasing a new plastic team every 4 months from next year. There is about enough teams to keep them busy for the next 4 years until they have got all the existing teams done. They would like to make coaches and cheerleaders at some point. There will be expansion packs for all teams and more Star Players coming out. No plans for Slann to be added, even using the Kislev computer game setup. There has been positive feedback about Savage Orcs so they may get upgraded to be a full team. No more Special Play Decks planned but Team Packs will have extra cards for existing decks.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:25 pm 
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That's some interesting news!

I'm curious what Helmut will end up looking like.

Elf Union team sounds really nice.

Goblin pitch - nice use for the second side of the board. Crazy though, a flooded pitch?! Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse! What next? duunnn dunnn... duuuunnnn duun... duuunnnnnnnn dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnn dunnnn....

Expansion packs for all teams? Even Goblins and Dwarves? Seems like those two don't necessarily need expansions. Orcs, definitely.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:35 pm 
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garion wrote:
Yes sorry I should have clarified, obviously Andy and JJ were/are part of GW staff.

Interesting post from you though Milo. To be clear I am not disagreeing with your version of events here - I just knew that info from an interview I did with JKL for an article a while ago -

Quote:
GLN: How did you get involved in the BBRC between LRB1 and LRB5?

JKL: I was on a newsgroup dedicated to Blood Bowl and at the time Jervis would come and go as he could, which wasn't much. I noticed it was all too much for him so I offered to be his front man on the newsgroup, collecting questions and giving them to him all at once and then returning the answers. He liked the idea and after a couple of posts he came up with the idea for the BBRC.

Here's something I've never shared before. I was actually responsible for picking the first online members. I never spoke of this before because there was already so much tension in those days. Too many disagreements about different rules. It was a hard decision process because as he had outlined it, we would be looking over the entire rules set and fixing problems we found there.

I purposely choose some members because I didn't agree with them, but I respected their knowledge and enjoyment of the game. Chet and I fought like cats and dogs online, but he knew his stuff and I never regretted bringing him on. I also had to cut one of my friends from the short list because we were from the same league and I wanted a range of experiences. I would often consult with him about some ideas because he was really the best player I have ever seen, but I couldn't include him. (His name is Doug Webber.)

I also made sure to bring in players from around the world where possible.

As the group evolved from consultants to full blown developers it taxed our time greatly. Debates were often backed as much by anecdotes as by statistics. Playtesting happened in our own leagues.

So it all started with a simple email to Jervis Johnson, who I respect greatly for his even handed game design and his ability to muster disparate opinions.


Well, I guess JKL and I remember things differently, then. Unfortunately, I don't think I have any emails dating back that far because I was using an email client called Eudora, and it's hard to access those emails these days. JKL was right about collecting questions and taking them to JJ -- that was why Jervis invited him into the group originally. I think the "newsgroup" he's talking about was the BBOWL-L email mailing list, though I'm not sure why he referred to it as a newsgroup. I'm not aware of an alt.games.bloodbowl back then, although it's possible there was one.

And he's also right about Doug. Doug was a great poster, and he and Chet monopolized the BBOWL-L list so much sometimes that I would call it the "Douggie and Chetty Show". Both very smart guys, liked to play devil's advocate for one another, and really helped coaches think through the various sides of arguments. I would have happily invited Doug to join the BBRC. (I honestly liked Doug more than JKL, but that was just a personality thing.) But both Doug and JKL lived near Ann Arbor, MI, at the time, and played in the same league, and Jervis wanted a better geographic spread. At the time, I lived in Alaska, Chet was in New York... I can't remember where Dean was, at the time. (Tennessee, maybe?) Babs was chosen not just for his presence in the BBOWL-L group, but also because he could help get feedback from Australian players and provide a different perspective. Andy and Jervis, both GW employees, also represented the UK/European area.

For anyone who wants more history on this time period, thanks to the Internet Wayback Machine, you can still see some of the chat sessions we had on bloodbowl.net with Jervis here: https://web.archive.org/web/20010309075 ... 12701.html

I did find the emails when I stepped down and nominated Tom to take my place, and I'd be willing to post that (for posterity's sake) if Tom's okay with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Baxx wrote:
It's been very silent around these teams. Savage Orcs and Human Nobility have been discussed in detail in one or two podcasts. I've tested Savage Orcs and they are fun. There have been some critics against the other teams, specially 4 guard blitzers on human nobility team. I would like to see these teams go official, maybe in a later Death Zone.


These teams were specifically designed to re-use the existing team miniatures, so that new Blood Bowl coaches could have two different sets of rules for the boxed teams, especially given the lack of variety in the available races at the time. That meant the rules were restricted to using the exact same number of positions and quantities as the base team.

I'm not sure if those teams will continue to be produced moving forward -- the need for them is lessened now that there are more GW minis on the market.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:34 pm 
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@milo: Oh, Eudora. I too lived in Alaska at one point, small world!

Yea, I'm not sure if producing a Savage Orc team would be worth it to GW right now. They have so many of the original teams to produce, and teams like Wood Elves, Chaos, etc. will likely net more money.

Though I do see Savage Orc conversions popping up on Ebay, plus another person trying to produce a team of them here. Also, since there have never been models for a BB Savage Orcs team, maybe some of the old timers would be more interested. Hard to say. I'm not expecting to see them from GW, just speculating.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 3, what might be
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:45 pm 
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faust_33 wrote:
Expansion packs for all teams? Even Goblins and Dwarves? Seems like those two don't necessarily need expansions. Orcs, definitely.

It was explicitly mentioned that Dwarves would eventually get one so you have alternative sculpts even though they do not need one for team composition.
Goblin already have an expansion for Secret Weapons and Contraptions will be out next.


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