Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

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Mystic Force
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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by Mystic Force »

There was also levels of how "illegal" a secret weapon was, meaning that some of the things like Death rollers were more likely to get sent off than a pogoer, that went all the way back to 3rd ed Deathzone. The new secret weapon skill is simpler, but I always thought the roll for send off fit better with the game background.

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by Arthur Gordon Pym »

JT-Y, did you manage to get any info about the translations?

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by JT-Y »

Not yet. I'll ask over the weekend. Everyone is mega busy with Warfest and other deadlines.

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by Arthur Gordon Pym »

JT-Y wrote:Not yet. I'll ask over the weekend. Everyone is mega busy with Warfest and other deadlines.
Ok, thank you very much!

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by Khar-peth »

DZ2 is available on the app

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by anothericonoclast »

My copy is still in the post apparently, so I haven't seen full gory details yet.

Out of interest, why is bad wizard dude more game breaking than bomber dribblesnot, who has a pretty similar effect? Is it the infinite range thing or the fact that any team can take him? I guess the super mobile teams don't get bombardiers.

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by iamcrazyjoe »

anothericonoclast wrote: Out of interest, why is bad wizard dude more game breaking than bomber dribblesnot, who has a pretty similar effect? Is it the infinite range thing or the fact that any team can take him? I guess the super mobile teams don't get bombardiers.
You also can't catch a fireball like you can catch a bomb

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by Rolex »

iamcrazyjoe wrote:
anothericonoclast wrote: Out of interest, why is bad wizard dude more game breaking than bomber dribblesnot, who has a pretty similar effect? Is it the infinite range thing or the fact that any team can take him? I guess the super mobile teams don't get bombardiers.
You also can't catch a fireball like you can catch a bomb
Or intercept it.
And you can't fumble a fireball.

The risk using a bombardier is much much higher.

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by anothericonoclast »

But a bombardier can throw a bomb every turn they don't move and are standing up. And if you aim *next* to the ball carrier he can't catch it. And if you aim at the ball carrier, and he *doesn't* catch it, it's a 100% knock down, not a 50% knock down. And if you're caging the ball you possibly don't have too many high AG players, so intercept is not so likely. Bombs also scatter less even when inaccurate (3* scatter not scatter * d3).

Fumbling a bomb is more common. Also, a bombardier is one of your 11, so it's costing you a player. Both *feel* pretty similar in that they are random in effect and potentially game-changing in outcome. Play testing will tell if 80k is too cheap.

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by Lyracian »

Death Zone Season Two
New Star Players
garion wrote: Willow Shame her stats and skills didnt change a bit though as she is still pretty much pointless
Karla very much - Zara light. I cant imagine I will ever bother taking Zara again though
Willow is useful for Halflings and if nothing else is linefodder for the other teams.
I agree Karla pretty much replaces Zara unless you are facing an Undead team and want to stab some Blodge Ghouls. Zara does play for a few more teams who might still want to hire her since they cannot have Karla.

Pact/Reengages and Goblins
The Orc, like the Skaven, is an extra option for the team but no Strength skill access will limit his usefulness. I can understand that giving all the Big Guys Mutation access would be too good but still think the Minotour should have been a Chaos Minotour with Mutation acsess.

While not removing Loner from the Trolls is a shame the lack of change to the Sneaky Git skill is the main problem here. At least with all the skills being presented in the book there is a chance of a skill update in Season 3 or 4. If Sneaky Git was a 4+ to escape from the Dungeon or even a +2 on Argue the Call Goblins would be much more playable in a League.

New Inducement: (In)Famous Coaches
I really like these they are costed cheaply enough to be used. The main problem with the Skaven and Shaman is they both cost the same as the Wizarrd and have a chance of making your situation worse. If a roll of 1 had been "No Effect" these would have been much more appealing.

Master Mage - Two scattering Fireballs is great and this seems a much better impelmentation of Wizards than the old 150k to, mostly, Zap one player. The big change for me, that most people seem to have overlooked, is that effectivly this Mage can also cast a Counter-spell. If players hire him then neither get to cast Fireballs where as when both players hire a LRB Wizard they cannot stop each other.

Goblin PA - He is my favourite and I think I would take him over the third bribe if I only had 150k to spend with Goblins. He is also cheap enough, being half a bribe for the other teams, to be worth taking if you plan on playing the Fouling game.

Papa Skullbones - For a Big Guy on a Renagade team you have Tail/Tentacles, Claw/Horn and Foul App is not completly useless. Add in option 8 for coaches choice and you have 40-50% chance of a useful result. You also have the option of turning a Beastman into a ball carrier with extra arms/head. Given how weak Chaos teams start I could see using this and hoping to get lucky. Shame he was not 50-60k as he seems too expensive.

Krot Shockwiskers -
garion wrote:80k only 50% chance of success, and only 1 in 6 chance of actually being useful. I doubt anyone will ever use it.
I agree he costs the same a Merc Linerat and only just less than an Wandering Apo both of whom will be more use. If it is the Playoffs/Final I might consider him for bringing back the teams star Runner or ROgre. Really needed to be 50k to be a useful option.

Rostering Star Players
You pay the cost to hire the Star Player and they join your team and gain Fan Fave skill. I can see myself hiring a star near the end of the Season so you have them for all the play off matches. The appearance fee makes this seem balanced. I expect to see a lot of teams with Chainsaws and resloving who is 'first' will be an issue for League management. The best option is to have a draft order for coaches so the worst players, or totally random, get the first pick at the Star Players.

Sponsorship
They found a use for the D16 which makes these difficult to get as you need 20+ with modifiers to get sponsored. Without stadiums teams are only likely to get Sponsors when they win in the playoffs/finals. Having a sponsor is a great way to pay for rostering a star player. I like the rule but it could end up making the split between good and bad teams in the league even more apparant.

Famous Refs
I am not impressed by this one they all* make fouling weaker and it is pretty weak already. If there special rules has been instead of being sent off on a doulbe rather than as well as they could have been interesting. I am sure plenty of undead coaches would rather have a +2 Injury roll on a Regenerating Zombie rather than a straight up sent off.
*Sure the Flings have a chance to send the foulee not the fouler off but there is still a greater chance of the fouler being sent off than with the standard rules as the Flings rule is in addition to the normal double roll on armour/injury not instead.

Stadiums
This is the big addition with seven pages of rules for playing at none-standard stadiums. There is a lot of rules and dice rolls and even once you have a stadium there is only about a 30% you will play a match at your home ground. It is a nice addition for long term leagues to give a team something to aim for but given how often players forget Weather I am not sure how much they will be used? Depending on what team you play there should be about half the options useful so teams should be able to find a stadium they like if not the one they really want. Maybe we will get things like the Weather Dome and Security Gate from the Computer game being available in the next edition.

Conclusions
There are a few annoying errors (Skullbones roll a D6 on this D8 chart and the picture of Scrapper not having a pogo stick) but overall much better than DZ1. I was also expecting an updated pre/post match sequence page. I look forward to playing these new rules in one of our local leagues.

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by garion »

anothericonoclast wrote:But a bombardier can throw a bomb every turn they don't move and are standing up. And if you aim *next* to the ball carrier he can't catch it. And if you aim at the ball carrier, and he *doesn't* catch it, it's a 100% knock down, not a 50% knock down. And if you're caging the ball you possibly don't have too many high AG players, so intercept is not so likely. Bombs also scatter less even when inaccurate (3* scatter not scatter * d3).

Fumbling a bomb is more common. Also, a bombardier is one of your 11, so it's costing you a player. Both *feel* pretty similar in that they are random in effect and potentially game-changing in outcome. Play testing will tell if 80k is too cheap.
I'm not sure if you are serious or trolling. But I will take this at face value.

They are not comparable for the following reasons -
* Only Goblins have a rostered Bombardier, not agile team or high Ma team has these players. Even including star players only Dwarf, Goblin, Ogre, Orc, Underworld and Norse, and most of these would not want to introduce such an unreliable detrimental player to their line up if playing competitively

* Bombardier causes turn over if you fumble or hit your own player, 80k wiz does not.
* Bombs can be intercepted and thrown back
* Bombardiers are REALLY easy to take out the game.
* The bombardiers last 1 drive only, then your player count is reduced by 1 the majority of the time. Gobos need as many men to field as possible losing 1 to sending off is something just cant afford. NB - they should have ball and chain and a chainsaw in their team also, they will not be using all 3 bribes in 1 go, if they can even afford 3, so the bomber is the first out the door.
* Goblin bomber fumbles on a 1 or 2 because of stunty.
* Goblin bombs are only accurate on a 4+, though usually 5+ really as there are rarely opponents close enough to to make a quick pass, so usually you need a 5 to throw accurately otherwise it will scatter. potentially hitting your own player, see point 1 above ^
* You do not want to waste rrs on Bombs as you need them for more important stuff, but you are at times forced to.
* Mark a bombardier or knock them over and they are pretty much out of the game. Its very easy to do both as the bombardier often doesn't move.
* All in all the bomber is big liability and should not be taken if you want to maximise your chances of winning.

The wizard on the other hand is 2 free shots at the opposing cage and ball carrier, it doesn't cause turn overs. Its only 80k, so will be used in most games. Its very very dicey, adding a BIG luck factor to the game that the game doesn't need. Too many dicey one off events and we will have a pointless game like dreadball that requires little to no skill to win. Blood Bowl has lived all these years because of the level of strategy and depth the game has got.

If the game goes too far down the rabbit hole of silly dicey one of events it will be spoilt.

One final point - I keep seeing people say - But if both coaches induce the new wizard then neither get him, like this is a good thing. Honestly.... how exactly is that fun??? everyone constantly spending 80k to prevent the game decending in to a dice off woo hoo :o yeah that's not fun...

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by Lyracian »

garion wrote:One final point - I keep seeing people say - But if both coaches induce the new wizard then neither get him, like this is a good thing. Honestly.... how exactly is that fun??? everyone constantly spending 80k to prevent the game decending in to a dice off woo hoo :o yeah that's not fun...
Fun is what you make of it. How is both players buying a 150k Wizard fun? The Rogue Wizard that scattered five times used to be a 50k card. The point about the new Wizard is there is a counter which I think is a good thing. There is no way to stop a LRB Wizard at least the Master Mage can be paid to not fireball your team.

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by garion »

Lyracian wrote:
garion wrote:One final point - I keep seeing people say - But if both coaches induce the new wizard then neither get him, like this is a good thing. Honestly.... how exactly is that fun??? everyone constantly spending 80k to prevent the game decending in to a dice off woo hoo :o yeah that's not fun...
Fun is what you make of it. How is both players buying a 150k Wizard fun?
I completely agree, its not. But this was pretty rare, people would generally only spend 150k on very important games. Also the 150k the TV leader would use to get a wizard would be an addition 150k the TV underdog would get. This dissuaded people from doing it somewhat. As an aside - I always felt the wizard was slightly too cheap in CRP 200k would represent his worth more accurately.

One thing this rule set has done well is SE to stop big cash hording. If SE was used while still using CRP inducement rules it would have meant both teams using wizards would be even rarer still and would have pretty much done away with TV leader buying inducements. this would have been a great system, possibly the best of any rule set to date, but instead we got given something else.

Sadly now we have a system in which the TV leader will buy inducements without their TV increasing (which is a big problem). As this inducement (wiz 80k) is so cheap we will often see TV leaders taking this inducement. This forces the TV underdog to waste their free inducement money on the Wizard to stop the leader getting him. Because the TV leader buying the wizard is not adding 80k to their TV (which it should) it essentially means that the underdog is in an even worse position. They already stood less chance of winning as they are the underdog and now they get 80k less inducement money because of the way cash, TV and inducements are now handled. generally speaking the weaker team has less cash to play with as they are just starting out, building their team up, while the Tv leader is generally in a dominant position.

This isn't a new problem. it was one of the biggest flaws with LRB4 and was referred to as Sneak hiring back then. In CRP this was made impossible and everyone rejoiced. Now it is back, I am seeing ALOT of people unhappy with this. The 80k wiz is only making matters worse.

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by Rolex »

I agree.
In competitive play the 80k wizard means 80k less of inducement for the underdog each time the overdog has 80k he can spend....

Was this considered by the guys reviewing the book?

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Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by Lyracian »

garion wrote:Sadly now we have a system in which the TV leader will buy inducements without their TV increasing (which is a big problem). As this inducement (wiz 80k) is so cheap we will often see TV leaders taking this inducement. This forces the TV underdog to waste their free inducement money on the Wizard to stop the leader getting him.

Because the TV leader buying the wizard is not adding 80k to their TV (which it should) it essentially means that the underdog is in an even worse position. They already stood less chance of winning as they are the underdog and now they get 80k less inducement money because of the way cash, TV and inducements are now handled.
TV leader is buying stuff only if they do not care about redrafting. I am about to play the semi-finals of our local league under the new rules. I am 140k underdog and am looking forward to being able to spend 60k treasury to round that up to 200k of inducements. I do know, as it has been said before, that if one player does not care about the redraft they can just burn all there money. They still have to get to the final though. My opponent has only 70k treasury so even if the new coaches were available he could not hire one for the semi-final.
garion wrote:This isn't a new problem. it was one of the biggest flaws with LRB4 and was referred to as Sneak hiring back then. In CRP this was made impossible and everyone rejoiced. Now it is back, I am seeing ALOT of people unhappy with this. The 80k wiz is only making matters worse.
While it is not covered in the rules the new Coaching Staff are like Star Players and I think they should be considered, like Stars, as "outside assistance" and thus banned in playoff matches (as per P26 DZ1). Personally I would put LRB Wizards in the same category and ban them during play-off games. While this does not actually stop the top dog spending Treasury it limited what they can usefully spend it on.

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