Chaos Renegades DZ2

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by babass »

Bakunin wrote:
garion wrote:
The Skaven is pointless, someone here always tries to claim otherwise, but honestly the team is better off without. Av7 sucks on a bash team like this. His skill access makes him a waste of time. G only adds nothing to your team, marauders are much better. If he had A access he would be worthwhile but he doesn't.

Well if you are talking resurrection, MissSweden is by far the best Chaos Pact coach in the world.
He always takes the Skaven and gives it Wrestle.

The Orc linemen will just help to be a great boxing ball for other teams killers/big guy

https://member.thenaf.net/index.php?mod ... e=rankings
garion is talking about league format (like fumbbl)
the roster of MissSweden is for "standard resurrection tournament"

you will never get 4 marauders with block+claw+MB+tackle like garion suggested, in a tabletop tourney
get a skill on the skaven is not the priority in league format (the elf will be the ball carrier/runner always)

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by Milo »

babass wrote: garion is talking about league format (like fumbbl)
the roster of MissSweden is for "standard resurrection tournament"

you will never get 4 marauders with block+claw+MB+tackle like garion suggested, in a tabletop tourney
get a skill on the skaven is not the priority in league format (the elf will be the ball carrier/runner always)
Yes, but garion also always speaks from the viewpoint of nothing but ultra-competitive league formats, where every point of TV is rigourously tested to min/max the teams potential. And he always makes proclamations that insist that no other opinion can possibly be correct.

Lots of people don't play Blood Bowl that way. I can certainly understand his viewpoint and where he's coming from, but I also think there's room for a diversity of playstyles AND opinions. Somewhere, sometime, there has been a game won by a Chaos Renegade coach that was due to the extra point of movement the Skaven player has, I'm sure of it. (But I'm equally sure that there's been a game won by minimizing TV and maxing out the possible inducements a Chaos Renegade team earns.)

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by garion »

Bakunin wrote:
garion wrote:
The Skaven is pointless, someone here always tries to claim otherwise, but honestly the team is better off without. Av7 sucks on a bash team like this. His skill access makes him a waste of time. G only adds nothing to your team, marauders are much better. If he had A access he would be worthwhile but he doesn't.

Well if you are talking resurrection, MissSweden is by far the best Chaos Pact coach in the world.
He always takes the Skaven and gives it Wrestle.

The Orc linemen will just help to be a great boxing ball for other teams killers/big guy

https://member.thenaf.net/index.php?mod ... e=rankings
Sure, in resurrection, but I'm talking about leagues. Resurrection is its own thing entirely.

Sure a skaven can be used, but generally speaking they do not add good value. Ma6 is enough to cover the pitch. From the central spot in a half you can make it to the LoS or end zone freely, and to the edge of the pitch with 1 GFI. Ma7 is of course a good thing, but that extra Av is more important in a grinding team. And remember the glide of probability of results "more than" is not a straight line, higher av makes you exponentially better at taking hits which you can see below with the probability of rolling "more than" chart. Where as the difference in 1 player being 1 Ma more isn't really so useful, as Ma6 covers the pitch anyway. Ma7 only really gets more useful en masse as the chances of 2 turn Tds increases significantly the more players you have with Ma7, with only 1 Ma7 player you cannot ever reliably give him good support in a 2 turn TD attempt because of the number of Gfi's that will be needed.

2 100
3 97.22
4 91.66
5 83.33
6 72.22
7 58.33
8 41.66
9 27.77
10 16.66
11 8.33
12 2.77

in short - play to a teams strengths.

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by Darkson »

I like and take the Skaven in league play, just for that odd time when the extra MA comes in handy.

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by garion »

Milo wrote: Yes, but garion also always speaks from the viewpoint of nothing but ultra-competitive league formats, where every point of TV is rigourously tested to min/max the teams potential. And he always makes proclamations that insist that no other opinion can possibly be correct.

Lots of people don't play Blood Bowl that way. I can certainly understand his viewpoint and where he's coming from, but I also think there's room for a diversity of playstyles AND opinions. Somewhere, sometime, there has been a game won by a Chaos Renegade coach that was due to the extra point of movement the Skaven player has, I'm sure of it. (But I'm equally sure that there's been a game won by minimizing TV and maxing out the possible inducements a Chaos Renegade team earns.)
Sure I may speak from a competitive stand point sure. But why would I offer advice if not from a competitive stand point? Surely if people are asking then they want to win? You are correct there is room for other play styles and despite what you may believe - I also play sub par playstyles, often, I've play Chaos Pact before painstakingly trying to recreate the Chaos All stars skill by skill, which obviously impacted my win ratio. But if someone asks for advice I would not tell them 3 Big Guys is the way to go when it is clearly a sub par strategy for example....

And I shouldn't have to prefix everything I say with IMO. Surely this is a given.

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by sann0638 »

garion wrote:IMO Surely this is a given.
Fixed that for you.

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by Milo »

garion wrote:
Milo wrote: Yes, but garion also always speaks from the viewpoint of nothing but ultra-competitive league formats, where every point of TV is rigourously tested to min/max the teams potential. And he always makes proclamations that insist that no other opinion can possibly be correct.

Lots of people don't play Blood Bowl that way. I can certainly understand his viewpoint and where he's coming from, but I also think there's room for a diversity of playstyles AND opinions. Somewhere, sometime, there has been a game won by a Chaos Renegade coach that was due to the extra point of movement the Skaven player has, I'm sure of it. (But I'm equally sure that there's been a game won by minimizing TV and maxing out the possible inducements a Chaos Renegade team earns.)
And I shouldn't have to prefix everything I say with IMO. Surely this is a given.
Sorry.

Yes, but IMO garion also always speaks from the viewpoint of nothing but ultra-competitive league formats, where every point of TV is rigourously tested to min/max the teams potential. And IMO he always makes proclamations that insist that no other opinion can possibly be correct.

Better?

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by garion »

:roll:

You are silly.

I'm more than open to listening to other peoples opinions and listen intently when certain people post/talk. The problem is on forums you get people that are actually pretty rubbish at the game (I know this from playing against them) saying things that are frankly nonsense. To the newer coach they may see comments such as - "Sneaky Git is a great skill I take 2 on every team so I can foul every turn", then that new coach might thing yeah that's a great strategy. When its clearly rubbish, and attention should be called to this so the newer learning coach does not go away armed with poor advice.

If someone asks what's the best way to play I think it is important they are given good advice on how to get the most out of a team. As I did for Faust.

Sorry but I do not understand why anyone would offer anything but the best advice one can offer to someone. Then if the coach asking for advice wants to they can then ignore bits and play in the suboptimal way for fun, fluff or team building. But building a good base knowledge of roster development is important for being a better coach and having that in their locker is important if they want to be better at the game. As you should understands and I assume you do - the whole game of blood bowl is about risk management from a strategic point of view.

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by Darkson »

But your playstyle may not suit everyone - I'd never recommend taking a RO in a Skaven team for example, because I've had much better results without one than when I took one, but I know most people think that's mad.

The Gospel according to Garion is not the only view.

And how is this new player you're so concerned about supposed to know your way (in your opinion) is better than anyone elses?

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by garion »

Darkson wrote:But your playstyle may not suit everyone - I'd never recommend taking a RO in a Skaven team for example, because I've had much better results without one than when I took one, but I know most people think that's mad.

The Gospel according to Garion is not the only view.

And how is this new player you're so concerned about supposed to know your way (in your opinion) is better than anyone elses?
Firstly - that's not my playstyle. I intentionally use sub optimal teams and team builds. However when offering advice I will continue to offer the best (in terms of getting the most bang for your buck) advice. Its just risk management which is strategically what the game boils down to as I said before, and it extents to roster creation, skill choices when to hire players and so on. Managing probability and risk management isn't just on the field of play

Now something like a Rat Ogre is certainly open for debate, I would side with you on this one, as he is imo overpriced and superfluous. He add too much unreliability and is very squishy, plus wild animals are pretty easy to take out of a drive and I could go on. But he does add strengths for sure.

Things like taking all 3 big guys on a pact starting roster, aren't really open for debate in the same way. Yes it can be fun, but it is sub optimal for a variety of reasons. Choosing between an ogre or troll, or taking 2 big guys can be argued sensibly. But anyone claiming 3 big guys is the optimal way to play chaos Pact, as in the greatest chance of winning, is frankly way off. Sure you can win like that, and sure people probably have, but its not the optimal strategy in terms of risk management and cost effective play.

Newer coaches certainly don't have to listen to me, but I'm just putting it out there as advice. They can take it or leave it, but without solid advice based on risk management all there would be on this forum is people saying silly stuff like Sneaky Git is awesome, and I always give pass block to 2 players.

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by cyagen »

Just my 2 cents, but if you want to play ultra-competitive, do not play Chaos Renegades!

Play Wood Elf (cheese head! Powergamer! IHATEU!), Dwarf (boooooooring), Lizzie (Broken!!!!) or Skaven (one turner scum!)

The point of the team IS to get 3 big guys on the pitch!

If you want to play the Block Clawpomb game, play chaos.

They are a 1.5 tier team for a good reason.

I get it that TV management is a big part of the game, but when it prevents you to use the main point of a team, then play another one.

Now back to our regular programming.

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by Milo »

garion wrote::roll:

You are silly.
I would never declare otherwise, and I challenge you, good sir, to find somewhere that I have. :slaps face with white glove:
garion wrote:I'm more than open to listening to other peoples opinions and listen intently when certain people post/talk. The problem is on forums you get people that are actually pretty rubbish at the game (I know this from playing against them) saying things that are frankly nonsense. To the newer coach they may see comments such as - "Sneaky Git is a great skill I take 2 on every team so I can foul every turn", then that new coach might thing yeah that's a great strategy. When its clearly rubbish, and attention should be called to this so the newer learning coach does not go away armed with poor advice.

If someone asks what's the best way to play I think it is important they are given good advice on how to get the most out of a team. As I did for Faust.

Sorry but I do not understand why anyone would offer anything but the best advice one can offer to someone. Then if the coach asking for advice wants to they can then ignore bits and play in the suboptimal way for fun, fluff or team building. But building a good base knowledge of roster development is important for being a better coach and having that in their locker is important if they want to be better at the game. As you should understands and I assume you do - the whole game of blood bowl is about risk management from a strategic point of view.
I think your advice is good, solid advice. You clearly have experience and I commend you for sharing it with others. I simply think you couch it in absolute, unbending terms that do not show an openness to other styles.

For example, your utter disdain for the 'Ooligan. I can see your argument that the cost of the player, relative to the value of the skills, may make him sub-optimal. But on the other hand, he is the source of two skills that no other Goblin player can acquire, and generally speaking, position players, by dint of their starting skills, make a team better overall than a lineman would. If your goal is to play Goblins as a low TV team who maximizes access to inducements, you're completely right that the 'Ooligan is probably not worth his cost. But if you choose to fill out your roster and go toe-to-toe with other similar TV teams, you'd generally want to have as many starting skills as possible. You simply say "He's worthless", but I think that's a narrow viewpoint based on one ultra-competitive way to play Goblins.

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by garion »

Milo wrote: For example, your utter disdain for the 'Ooligan. I can see your argument that the cost of the player, relative to the value of the skills, may make him sub-optimal. But on the other hand, he is the source of two skills that no other Goblin player can acquire, and generally speaking, position players, by dint of their starting skills, make a team better overall than a lineman would. If your goal is to play Goblins as a low TV team who maximizes access to inducements, you're completely right that the 'Ooligan is probably not worth his cost. But if you choose to fill out your roster and go toe-to-toe with other similar TV teams, you'd generally want to have as many starting skills as possible. You simply say "He's worthless", but I think that's a narrow viewpoint based on one ultra-competitive way to play Goblins.
Well I guess we will see. Personally i think once the "shiny new thing" effect wears off, he will almost never be used by anyone. Heck I use the Bomber occasionally even though he sucks. But the Ooligan, well, it's not a case of being ultra competitive. Gobos are one of the worst teams in the game already. They don't need to dead weight. Even people that play just for the story and do not care about winning at all I do not see bothering with him after the initial trial runs...

Where does he fit in for you?
2 trolls - 220
looney - 40
fanatic- 70
pogo - 70
8 gobos - 320
rr 3 - 180
apo 50
950tv
induce 1 bribe.

I dunno. I think the reason I really dislike the 'Ooligan is it really demonstrates a lack of understanding of the game dynamics, he's just badly designed. When we could have had any number of better changes. Like removing loner from trolls which everyone i have spoken with about about BB over the last 7 years or so have all been in agreement with...

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Re: Chaos Renegades DZ2

Post by stashman »

garion wrote:
Milo wrote: For example, your utter disdain for the 'Ooligan. I can see your argument that the cost of the player, relative to the value of the skills, may make him sub-optimal. But on the other hand, he is the source of two skills that no other Goblin player can acquire, and generally speaking, position players, by dint of their starting skills, make a team better overall than a lineman would. If your goal is to play Goblins as a low TV team who maximizes access to inducements, you're completely right that the 'Ooligan is probably not worth his cost. But if you choose to fill out your roster and go toe-to-toe with other similar TV teams, you'd generally want to have as many starting skills as possible. You simply say "He's worthless", but I think that's a narrow viewpoint based on one ultra-competitive way to play Goblins.
Well I guess we will see. Personally i think once the "shiny new thing" effect wears off, he will almost never be used by anyone. Heck I use the Bomber occasionally even though he sucks. But the Ooligan, well, it's not a case of being ultra competitive. Gobos are one of the worst teams in the game already. They don't need to dead weight. Even people that play just for the story and do not care about winning at all I do not see bothering with him after the initial trial runs...

Where does he fit in for you?
2 trolls - 220
looney - 40
fanatic- 70
pogo - 70
8 gobos - 320
rr 3 - 180
apo 50
950tv
induce 1 bribe.

I dunno. I think the reason I really dislike the 'Ooligan is it really demonstrates a lack of understanding of the game dynamics, he's just badly designed. When we could have had any number of better changes. Like removing loner from trolls which everyone i have spoken with about about BB over the last 7 years or so have all been in agreement with...
Pogo vs. Ooligan
Pogo: +1 MA (leap, vll is not the thing)
Ooligan: Disturbing Presence and Fan Favourite

I have never needed the ma7 pogo, but the old Dirty Player was great.

The new ooligan gives some new thinking. Stop a pass, catch or TTM with Disturbing Presence. Getting that extra +fame can be really nice. Cheering Fans and Brilliant Coaching, to get the reroll - but more important stop opponent from getting it. Throw a rock and pitch invasion is as you know - great to win.

So the Pogo got serious competition from the ooligan in MY PLAYBOOK.

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