Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

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Re: Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

Post by bound for glory »

While I have been painting miniatures since 1977, I am just at "table top standard". But as I love painting the figures, its the biggest part of the hobby to me.

I am very lucky that my wife has a miniatures painting service. She mainly paints historical wargame figures, but she has been painting GUILD BALL figures and also ofcourse blood bowl figures.

She has painted for GLOWWORM, MNB, and a few others here, and everyone was happy.

I have so many BB/FF figures, it works out that there are 2 of us painting in this house 8)

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Stout Youngblood wrote:
lunchmoney wrote:Request to mods: any chance this thread can be split? The original topic has been lost in the noise about whether one should paint or not!
Totally agree.
Yes, let's make this thread about crucifying LaugingFerret, and start a different thread to crucify DinoTE! 8)

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Re: Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

Post by DinoTitanedition »

Request to mods: any chance this thread can be split? The original topic has been lost in the noise about whether one should paint or not!
Titlesuggestion: What is part of Blood Bowl, the hobby and how is it handled by you

@Mickey:
cool, then i'll get a 40k mini, and show up to the next local 40k tournament, point the mini at other players' armies, shout, "pew, pew, pew!" all day and see how that works out for me. :)
As long as you find someone to play in that way, it`s possible. If you look at the historical background of wargaming, coming from the military, generals did not have "movement rules" or stuff like that as well. They had to judge by their experience how fast troops could move. Thou, a tournament is probably not the right place to do that, since in that environment there is a set expectation of how to play the game. But notice....in that environment...

When you see kids putting up little plastic soldiers on terrain, it is pretty much what generals did at their time as well, with the difference, that their decisions were tied to human life. Judging the situation, estimating the possibilities and trying to act in a possible way with your troops, is pretty much the same, even thou kids judgement is different from older and more experienced people on real life situations. But it is wargaming as well in it`s own fashion. No matter if it is not as sophisticated as a more complex system.

@Mike:
I don't agree with your logic. All possible facets are relevant to somebody but that does not make all of them necessary for everybody. You can play video games that offer modding support without learning to program mods... you can paint landscapes without ever painting a portrait. You can race cars without ever building a car yourself. It comes down to which aspects of an activity happen to appeal to you and whether you can satisfy the basic requirements to engage in that activity.
Good point - I like an argumentation where thought has been put into it. Now...when you`re a "painter", it is not important what you paint, it is of more importance that something is being painted, right? Don`t get me wrong, I am not trying defy everything, I`m merely giving it a thought as well. Like the racecar-example for instance. I would suppose the description of your position would be "driver". Therefore I would not expect one to build the car he`s driving in a race. With the videogames I´m split on the other hand - to me many expectations are tied to the way something is offered or worded. A video game is offered as such, therefore I`d expect someone who buys it to play it. If it says it is "modfreindly" I expect that there will be mods and that some of them will be used, without the owner of the creative property having anything against a change of the former idea. Going through my own collection of games I`ve noticed that I really did modify every game which is stated to be modfriendly. So this is actually supporting my logic. On the other hand supporting your argument is, that in this particular case, it was not me creating those mods.

But here we are at the wording issue again - Games Workshows sees it`s customers as hobbyists. The hobby itself is constructed by the four mainfacettes mentioned: building, playing, writing and....painting. The "hobby" is not focused onto one aspect itself...I think.
Even under GW the "rule" about minis was that they had to be painted GW minis... but I don't recall there ever being a requirement that they have been painted by your own hand. At this point I don't think any of those minis requirements realistically exist in tabletop/tournament play.
I`m not to fond of tournaments, for the same reason I do not like painting services - it excludes certain parts of the hobby, which I have mentioned afore to be part of it. Thou there is of course events which try to shift all the aspects into balance. I have watched parts of the Warlords Event coverage on YouTube and I feel that is one event showing very well how much potential the hobby as a whole has: ever mini way build and painted (yet at this point I do not know if done by all participants themselves, but the people they interviewed did), games were played, narration was included through scenarios.
You can like the idea of something but continually fail to enjoy the thing itself. There are a lot of things in my own life that fit the bill... drawing, for example.. I'd love to be good at it, but I'm just not.
So are you still drawing on a regular basis?

About the workout, I`ve been a semi-pro sportsman since 1996. Everyone that did sports can assure you, that working out is not all that`s needed for a nice shape. It`s like the aspect thing of the hobby - if you work out like hell, but eat shit, you`ll feel "shitty as hell". I you work out like hell and eat good, you`ll be lookin` "hella good". That`s how my former coach once explained it to me.
She's not playing Warhammer, she's playing with Warhammer bits...
A game is only the same game if you're using the same rules everyone else who plays that game is using
So a Formula1 driver and a taxidriver are the same as well? And scenarios modifiy the ruleys strongly as well, even at it`s core. I have mentioned before, that there is the explicit values, that define Warhammer as Warhammer. Like a Formula1 car defines a formula one driver as not being a taxidriver, even though both cartypes are slaves to the same laws of phisique.

The example you describe with "Sorry" and "Snakes and ladders" (....what is the german name for those?) is actually undermining my statement: as only the ruleset is what seperates the two (judging by what you wrote) as an exclusive factor, changing the figures it`s played with would not matter.

But if there was a narrative which would tie the individual look of the figure to being a recognition value, it would not be anymore like that and you could change the rules, without playing "something" else. The brand is of matter. Pants are fabricated in the same way, yet a Diesel is not Levis, and Smurfs are not Blood Bowl.

But I think we are getting somewhere here. Both factors are of importance for this game, even though I think that the brand is a stronger recognition value than the ruleset. If I look at the Blood Bowl variations: Dungeon Bowl, Street Bowl, Blood Bowl 7s, I would see mine and your theory as confirmed - all rulesets use a raw version of the core set, yet all of them refer to beings only present in the Blood Bowl universe (at least don`t know of the Warhammer colleges of magic in the smurfseries...).
A game is only the same game if you're using the same rules everyone else who plays that game is using
Not everyone...SOMEone. One more person playing it your way, is enough to do so. In some cases you don`t even need another individual to do so, if you get the feeling that you are identifying with the recognition values of the game. It is probably that feeling, or not having that feeling, why meanings differ so much at this topic.
I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the rules that says you can't use plastic smurfs as playing pieces for a game of Blood Bowl, so yes, you'd still be playing Blood Bowl if you used them.
On the other hand I am pretty sure that there is nothing including the Smurfs into the Blood Bowl universe or the other way around. I also do not recall the rulebook haing a smurf roster....if you want to go by written rules...

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Re: Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

Post by mikeyc222 »

OK... so here's a question. if i break out my mordheim table, and play mordheim rules, BUT use blood bowl minis and in the melee phase i shout "block" while rolling my hit dice... am i playing blood bowl, mordheim, blood-heim, or mord-bowl? :)

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Re: Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

Post by Metalface13 »

mikeyc222 wrote:OK... so here's a question. if i break out my mordheim table, and play mordheim rules, BUT use blood bowl minis and in the melee phase i shout "block" while rolling my hit dice... am i playing blood bowl, mordheim, blood-heim, or mord-bowl? :)
I think that's called Guild Ball, buddy.

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Re: Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

Post by mikeyc222 »

Metalface13 wrote:I think that's called Guild Ball, buddy.
:lol:

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Re: Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

Post by Jip »

I'm guessing it'd be a bit beyond my price range (I'm a stingy !censored!!), but what kind of money do people charge for tabletop quality Blood Bowl team to be painted?

I like painting, but prefer converting, and just don't have time to paint what I'd like to, how I'd like to.

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Re: Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

Post by Olaf the Stout »

I don't agree with your logic. All possible facets are relevant to somebody but that does not make all of them necessary for everybody. You can play video games that offer modding support without learning to program mods... you can paint landscapes without ever painting a portrait. You can race cars without ever building a car yourself. It comes down to which aspects of an activity happen to appeal to you and whether you can satisfy the basic requirements to engage in that activity.
Good point - I like an argumentation where thought has been put into it. Now...when you`re a "painter", it is not important what you paint, it is of more importance that something is being painted, right? Don`t get me wrong, I am not trying defy everything, I`m merely giving it a thought as well. Like the racecar-example for instance. I would suppose the description of your position would be "driver". Therefore I would not expect one to build the car he`s driving in a race. With the videogames I´m split on the other hand - to me many expectations are tied to the way something is offered or worded. A video game is offered as such, therefore I`d expect someone who buys it to play it. If it says it is "modfreindly" I expect that there will be mods and that some of them will be used, without the owner of the creative property having anything against a change of the former idea. Going through my own collection of games I`ve noticed that I really did modify every game which is stated to be modfriendly. So this is actually supporting my logic. On the other hand supporting your argument is, that in this particular case, it was not me creating those mods.

But here we are at the wording issue again - Games Workshows sees it`s customers as hobbyists. The hobby itself is constructed by the four mainfacettes mentioned: building, playing, writing and....painting. The "hobby" is not focused onto one aspect itself...I think.
I think that's the difference. You regard Blood Bowl as a hobby, which involves modelling, painting and playing.

A lot of people (especially those that have discovered Blood Bowl via the video game or FUMBBL) regard Blood Bowl as playing the game. Modelling and painting your own minis for your team are something you can do if you want, but are not essential to be a Blood Bowl player.

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Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

Post by Shteve0 »

Jip wrote:I'm guessing it'd be a bit beyond my price range (I'm a stingy !censored!!), but what kind of money do people charge for tabletop quality Blood Bowl team to be painted?

I like painting, but prefer converting, and just don't have time to paint what I'd like to, how I'd like to.
I think it varies. Down this way hobby types (such as I) charge about $10-15 a model, depending on what it is you want done - so maybe $200-250 (£95-120) range per team. For the step up professional/international guys, I believe you're looking 2-3 times that.

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Re: Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

Post by connexion »

Shteve0 wrote:I think it varies.
Indeed it does.

Last tournament that I atended, there was a painted Chaos Pact team (Gaspez miniatures) that I quite liked so struck a chat with the owner and it turned out that it was painted by a "professional" third party. The paintjob (full set of 16 minis including 2 big guys) ran him down 80€ or so and like I said, was good enough to grab my attention - technically it consisted of 2 layers of paint in each differently coloured area plus a global wrap-up shading and a few bits and bobs of details (a tattoo here and there). I guess that, if you have the right tools and materials as well as the skill/experience, you can turn our a very acceptable grade paintjob in record time and cost effectivness.

Valid points about players that came via the digital platforms for whom painting is secondary. I came into BB via WFB so the painting part is an integral part of the BB experience and, while I understand what takes some players to hire a painter, I'd rather face a not-so-well painted team, that was painted by the person in front of me, that teams painted by 3rd parties. I feel it adds a bit to the "social" aspect of BB - you know, like exchanging culinary recipes at a cooking event rather than just commenting on the quality of the dishes. ;)

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Re: Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

Post by JT-Y »

I can honestly say that there are many painters out there whose work I admire enough that I would commission them to paint a team for me and that I'd proud to own it and use it, and would probably take more care of it than I do any of my own work.

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Re: Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

Post by rolo »

I'm not going to judge. I enjoy painting but I appreciate that not everyone does. And that some of those people who don't like painting still like having well painted teams. Who am I to tell someone what they can do with their money? Or that they have to spend years learning a skill that they hate? I also mow my own lawn but a lot of my friends hire a landscaper. Same thing.

The only thing I'd potentially have a problem with is if somebody used a pro painted team to get a "Best Painted" trophy at a tournament. I feel like that would be "buying a trophy" and cheating. I'd also like to emphasize that this hasn't ever been an issue in my experience. I've known people who have brought pro painted teams to tournaments, but without fail they have been open about this and recused their teams from that trophy. Which I find fair, not only to the amateur painters hoping for a trophy, but also for the pros looking for customers. Painted teams are their resume, and they should get credit.

Jip, I've seen a few teams done by Axia in person (he also posts regularly on this forum). He was at the World Cup, and everyone I know who has hired him has noted his professionalism. I don't know what he charges, I know he has a sliding scale for the amount of detail, but from context I suspect it comes out to several hundred Euros for a full team.

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Re: Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

Post by Darkson »

rolo wrote:The only thing I'd potentially have a problem with is if somebody used a pro painted team to get a "Best Painted" trophy at a tournament. I feel like that would be "buying a trophy" and cheating. I'd also like to emphasize that this hasn't ever been an issue in my experience.
Unfortunately that happened to us (and we're still waiting for the trophy to be returned).
We wouldn't have known if it hadn't been for a friend of the person that painted the team letting me know via FB.
The person in question then claimed he "didn't realise you needed to paint it himself", despite it being announced before the judging took place.

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Re: Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

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