Orc teams too strong?

BobbyDavro · Post by **BobbyDavro** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 1:08 am

I did bring this topic up in the GW forum some time ago, but having played more games now, I feel that it is worth discussing again.

All of the players in our league are convinced that the Orc team is just too well optimised. The Orc player, who is no better than the rest of us, has never lost a game with them.

In our league, his team now has:

1 Troll
4 Blitzers
2 Black Orc Blockers
6 Linemen

1 Apothecary
3 RR
9 FF

And this team is proving unstoppable, especially now that a number of the players, including a Black Orc have picked up skills.

In tonight's game, the dwarf opposition actually managed to kill the troll, who promptly regenerated, and killed another player who was instantly saved by the apothecary. In the end, the dwarves were forced to concede the game because the team was losing so badly that he couldn't afford to risk any more injuries.

But discussing it with the other players, we all agree that the Orcs are simply too cheap and too optimised for leagues:

The Orcs are heavily armoured, so they rarely get killed/seriously injured. This means that the coach can simply save up the money to buy whatever, without the need to replace players.

The team doesn't really have any problems - the speed is provided by 4 blitzers with heavy armour and block. The muscle is provided by the STR4 blockers and the troll.

The Black Orc blockers are stupidly cheap - they have their MA and AG reduced to keep the cost down, but of course they NEVER need either of these attributes because they are only used to give the other team a beating.

And why are trolls so cheap? Being really stupid is actually no more of a hindrance than being bone-headed since you just never have to leave him unguarded. And once more, a troll is simply an optimised Ogre. Remove the AG, which they don't ever need, reduce the movement, which they don't really need, add in regeneration to make them impossible to kill and then make them 20K cheaper than an ogre.... yeah that makes sense.

We have already banned the use of goblins - yet more speed and dodge to boot! No thanks.

So overall, they aren't slow, they have lots of punch, have dirt cheap players and are very hard to kill. Where is the disadvantage in this team?

We are seriously considering banning the Orc team altogether because it doesn't look like they can be beaten (no one has even scored aginst them yet!)

Does anyone else find this problem with overpowered Orc teams? And no, it ISN'T simply that the coach is really good. He is average.

Anthony_TBBF · Post by **Anthony_TBBF** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 1:14 am

What other teams do you have in your league?

BobbyDavro · Post by **BobbyDavro** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 1:17 am

Other teams are:

Chaos (me)
Skaven
Humans
Dwarves
Dark Elves

I haven't played against the Orcs yet, and perhaps I am the only one who will be able to match his strength. I have an ogre and 2 Chaos Warriors

Anthony_TBBF · Post by **Anthony_TBBF** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 1:23 am

Well the Orc specilaty is the ability to give out and take a beating. I find that high MA teams can usually outdance Orcs, and high AG teams can greatly minimize hits taken by dodging away. If you are just trying to match strength you are going to have a harder time winning, but IMO Orcs are certainly not so out of control that they need to be banned. I would say if your Dwarf coach got beaten so bad that he had to concede it was probably more due to bad luck than anything else. If anything Dwarfs are one of the teams that can take it to the Orcs.

What sort of TRs are you guys playing at the moment?

BobbyDavro · Post by **BobbyDavro** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 2:04 am

The TRs are as follows:

Orcs: 144
Chaos: 140
Dark Elves: 107
Skaven: 117
Humans: 129
Dwarves: 127

The skaven and human teams are both at the bottom of the league having lost all of their games.

The dwarves did lose due to bad luck, yes - there was a pitch invasion which left 3 scrimmage line players stunned and one in the injury bin, which was the end for the dwarves. However, prior to that he had been making little progress and simply holding his own.

Icedman · Post by **Icedman** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 2:58 am

Hey Bobby,
I don't see the Orc team as overpowered at all. For one, the team (like the Undead) have been around in their current incarnation for about the last decade, which suggests that they are balanced towards the other teams. Secondly, as Anthony said, the team revolves around dishing out (and taking) punishment, and if you try and match them hit for hit (especially the Human, DElf and Skaven teams), you are going to lose. The Dwarf and Chaos teams should be able to go head-to-head in a beating game with some chance of winning, but if, as you said, a Pitch Invasion takes out half a team, well, that is luck, and no coach can really come back from that.

Finally, as for the coach being "average", well, if he knows just how to play the team right, then his coaching ability shouldn't really affect the outcome. For instance, the Orc player in our league can't (or more appropriately, won't) play the game well, so even though his team is incredibally powerful, he pretty much can't win a game. My Skaven team can run rings around him, as can the Human and HElf teams in my league.

BobbyDavro · Post by **BobbyDavro** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 4:24 am

The Orc coach tends to play a single extended line. Now you are probably thinking that this leaves a massive amount of space behind for a running team to score in. However, so far no one has ever managed to get through the line successfully with the ball.

It is a risky strategy that he uses, but having all 11 players in the front line gives him an extra muscle factor over the opposition, and most just get pummelled into the pitch.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 5:27 am

First of all, what house rules do you use?

Second, how many other teams has the Orc coach used?

Third, there is only a 4 point difference between the Chaos and the ORC team.

Fourth, You haven't even played the team yet and you are calling it over powered? YOur league hasn't played enough games to declare anything about the orcs.

Here's my thoughts. Either your orc coach is good and he's found his team or (more likely) you and most everyone else is pretty inexperienced. If a skaven coach can't break a gutter runner through that line and score then somethng is wrong. His highest MA is 6. A gutter runner can move 9. Put the GR on the line near one of the holes. Make the hole bigger, or dodge him through with the ball. Move him his maximum MA and then next turn score. Not hard.
I would also guess that you have some kind of house rules (or are doing something incorrect) that is allowing ST teams to dominate.

Let me tell you a story about my league. The EIBBL-Year One had 6 coaches. I ran undead in our 10 game season and went undefeated. Year Two- I ran undead and went 4-1 when the rest of league declared Undead to be overpowered and banned them. Forcing me to play dwarfs in Year Three. I won the next 3 tournaments with them. Undead were brought back and coached by another coach. That undead team had losing record for the next 2 years.

Play some more seasons. Have somebody else run Orcs. Try some new strategies. But before you call the Orcs unbalanced think about how long they have been around.

Demandred · Post by **Demandred** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 6:52 am

perfect winning record = good coach

you guys just need to learn the rules and then apply them

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 7:59 am

The fact that an Orc team hasn't won any of the big tourneys yet (I think), suggests their not overpowered, they've just got a better coach.

It happens. I play a guy at 40K and he wipes the floor with me every time, but at BB I hold the edge. It's all to do with what systems you play and like.

CauCauCau · Post by **CauCauCau** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:12 am

No offense, but I think that something is lacking amoung the non-Orc coaches in your league. There's nothing over-powered about the orcs. The 11 guys on the front line is a joke of a defense against a competent coach. The skaven should be scoring on him every time he does this. It's simple really: put 1 storm vermin and 1 gutter runner on the line, with the gutter running assiting the storm vermin in a block against an orc (preferably a lineman). Storm vermin moves orc out of the way (2 dice block can almost always be counted on to produce atleast a pushback-- and you can use a team reroll). Gutter runner runs as far as he can (you may even want to risk a go for it to ensure things). Then, if you can, dodge the skaven who are in contact with the orcs back a square each. The end result: No ork can even REACH the gutter runner with the ball and they'll only get one blitz to hit the rats with. Then the skaven score.

Work on your coaching a bit and you'll have no problem with this player. With only 2 black orcs (out of a possible 4) he's not even gone the full-power hitting route.

^Cau

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 9:45 am

Just won the WPS Club Challenge Bloodbowl Division with Orcs. Not a big tournament tho....

Yes, orcs are very strong, no, they are not overpowered. I'm surprised your Skav coach hasn't been tearing them to shreds if their strategy consists of putting everyone on the line.

I think you all need to start thinking about strategies to combat the orc coaches particular style of play. The fact that you mention you can't hurt them suggests to me you're playing all wrong. Move 6 on 4 players is certainly not "all the speed they need". Especially when they're not particularly good at dodging. You need to start screening him off and controlling a bit more real estate.

If he sets up everyone on the line, I suggest getting kick and kicking deep. Get a guarder or two on your team to help break the line and charge downfield, screen off behind his 11 man line and don't leave anyone in base to base contact. He'll never catch you as you race past him, pick up the ball and score.

Easy money.

BigD · Post by **BigD** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 9:46 am

I've gotta agree. The Orcs are NO way overpowered. And cheap? Excuse me? I don't think so. Black Orc Blockers are just a ST4 with NO block at 80K ain't cheap. They're slow, hard hitting but do they penetrate AV? It sounds more like a bloody good coach than anything. Also how good is the Dwarf Coach? Having played Orcs myself verses Dwarves I considered myself lucky to have drawn. Yes Drawn! I'm not the best of coaches and have generally preferred the more violent side of them which is why I've played them in the past. But I've lost a lot of games in the past to Elves, Skaven etc. All comes down to the stle of play and the coaching.

If you're playing Dwarves against Orcs then stay back. Always Dodge away so they have to use their blitz to get any hits at all! Pure and simple. And dwarves are great ball carriers. Comes with the centre of gravity being so close to the ground I guess! Or just plain stubborn? Just gotta move the ball and protect the ball carrier. And use your RRs only when you really need them!

BigD

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 9:48 am

Oh yeah. BigD - tell the man what happens when you put all your Orcs on the line off the kickoff

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 9:55 am

I actually have a problem against orcs as well.

My preferred team is dwarves, and a friend of mine prefers orcs.
He always beats me into the dust.

Now I must admit that he's both a (bit) better coach and a (bit) more lucky from time to time, but I still don't see how to beat Orcs with Dwarfs:
- Dwarfs are slower
- Overall orcs are better armoured
- Dwarfs don't have any S4 players

Dwarfs should be able to at least take what the orcs can give, and then give that back to them, but they're not...

The only thing you can get against orcs is more skills, but in the end that just won't do the trick, since skills don't work when you're in the injury box...

Maybe somebody knows some good Dwarf vs Orcs strategies???