Talk Fantasy Football

1) Wizard: IMO, 100k Fireball would be a tad broken.
1a) 200k would be fine.
1b) An alternative would be to weaken the Wizard slightly, perhaps such that you'd have to pick Fireball or Lightning Bolt in advance, rather than getting to decide which when you use it, at 150k.
1c) Or you could make it so they were a bit less accurate, still at 150k. Example: roll 2d6 for each potential target. Lightning: roll 6+. Fireball: roll 7+ in target square, 8+ in neighboring squares.

2) Babe: How about this? Each Babe allows you to add +2 to one KO roll per match, which is kind of like a 3+ save vs. failed KO rolls.

3) Secret Weapon and Bribe: I think it would be cool if, along with a slightly-nerfed Wizard, Secret Weapons cost a tad more (not a lot more) and Bribes were cheaper and less effective. Say, 0-4, at 4+ for 50k? You could even allow a second Bribe to be usable as a RR, so for 100k it's 3/4 to keep your man and 1/2 to keep a 4+ Bribe for next time. Give Goblins +2 on the initial Bribe roll, but not on any re-roll, so it's 5/6 or 11/12.

4) Igor: How about making Igor a +2 on any Regeneration roll instead of a RR: essentially, it's the same effect as RR at +1, but without any clunkiness.

5) Stars: Some big guy stars are ridiculously expensive, others are fine. Please justify.

Other inducement "cheese" is more manageable. DP Mercs would be more common, for example, if chainsaws cost more. Wizard vs. Chainsaw would become a handy comparison, and if Wizards are lowered to the level of saws, then it'll be a matter of matchup math. Merc big guys are good for some teams and not for others; fortunately, the cheese factor is rather limited, because the teams that use this strategy are generally the ones that don't need big guys to work at peak (and hence, don't roster them). It's not very good for Lizardmen, unless your Krox dies or something. It's kind of fun with Skaven, but you don't need it, and it certainly doesn't compete with Fezglitch + Bribe or Wizard + Babe. (Or, for a tad more, Wizard + Fezglitch!)

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I don't see how the Wizard can be overcosted. Hands down, I'd always rather have seven more skills than a Wizard. If you pick any two 1 Million starting teams and say one player gets a Wizard and one player gets 6 Normal Skills and a Doubles skill, I'm pretty sure the skilled team will win a majority of the time (which is just about what an inducement should do, keeps it interesting but isn't as good as having the higher TV). If it was 200k there's no way it would be anywhere as good as having 10 Skills on your players and I couldn't see that underdog team ever really winning, which would make the Wizard a little too ineffective.

And really, that's true of any of the inducements. If I want to win the match, I'd rather be the TV overdog than get inducement advantages (assuming of course the overdog doesn't have ridiculous TV bloat). This of course assumes a natural tabletop league, not online MM.

Of course, the Wizard's effectiveness might be proportionally better if it's coming from the TV difference of player costs. So two new teams with the same amount of skills, except one has purchased an expensive new werewolf and now gives up a wizard. Well, it's less clear there which is better to have (the wizard or the additional expensive player), but now that's the whole risk/benefit decision you have to make as a coach if you want a deeper bench.

Wizards don't start getting undercosted until both teams mature a bit. 1mil vs 1.15mil the skills or players will be better than the wiz usually, but at 1.5 to 1.65 the wizard can be a total gamebreaker on most team matchups. Wizards are also often all or nothing, and being able to drop a ballcarrier 5/6 of the time in a turn-limited game can do a lot of damage.

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As Daht says - wizards (and all inducements) have to priced depending on when they're at their best rather than an average of sorts. Generally, the higher the TV of the teams, the better the wizard is.

Cheers
Martin

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Generally, the higher the TV, the better most inducements are. It's easier for a Chainsaw or Wandering Apothecary to justify his cost if the player it's being used on is worth 150k than if he's worth 80k.

I think they all have different curves, though. They're also at different power levels for different teams. To some extent, some teams just get more value out of TV differential than others.

Example: Amazons are great underdogs: they have good stars at all price-points, they make good use of Wandering Apothecaries and Babes, and they are extremely vulnerable to Secret Weapons and Fireballs.

In fact, I think it wouldn't be too hard to come up with relative value for each possible inducement for and against. Say, attribute an A, B, or C for each inducement for a team as a whole, and then come up with a formula to determine how relatively good their inducement list is.

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What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.

Last season in our league I faced 4 wizards over the 9 rounds. 2 of them rolled 1's for lightning bolt, one knocked over 2 players but failed to beat AV8 with the fireball and one lightning bolted to stun the ball carrier but failed to stop the TD. I accept that I was lucky but do I think they're undercosted? No though I can understand why others may think so. Perhaps the option or either spell is the issue? Maybe 100k per spell would be a better option?

According to Sann0638...... "Fezglitch is not undercosted".

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Actually all inducements are overcosted by design....

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Nuffle's going to come down on me for saying this but the wizard is fine as it is. Against low TV having skills is better; vs higher TV you should be able to field a second ball handler.

You can get into the nth degree of micromanaging all costs to their uber calculated value vs net average worth (and incorporating a bonus for bell curve issues), but you could also accept that generally everything works and, like in life, sometimes you get the rub of the green and sometimes you don't.

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I dunno, I'd say that Silibili on a lizardman team is always worth his inducement cost as long as you have 6 saurii + krox, and it's somewhat rare that Silibili and Morg together on a lizardman team don't pay back their hefty inducement cost (usually, if you are so low TV that you don't have *any* block/tackle, then no amount of inducements can help you against elves).

My issue with the wizard isn't over/undercost, it varies greatly depending on the teams, it's just the lightning bolt sucks. It's ridiculously effective breaks down any play.. except when it misses and is completely wasted. Would much rather see more interesting options. Fireball is ok at 50/50 but can hit an area. Can be trickier to place and not hit your own guys, can be devastating, can do nothing, can do something in between. Something like the old zap spell or other options would be more fun than the bolt.

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I don't understand the complains against the wizard. It is a one time thing! 150k to get be almost certain that you can bring down a player once.
The greatest gain from having a wizard it seems it to keep reminding my opp that I have it. That's when I can feel that I might get my moneys worth.

The reason there are only two spell left is not hard to figure out either. They were the only ones used. personally I seldom use fireball. 150k for a 50% to get down one guy(the % get lower for each aditional guy you need to bring down) seems like a bad investment(except when it works of course). A lightning bolt that misses is nearly as bad as a failing chef(ok maybe not, but you get my point) but at least it has a high chance of success.

My biggest beef with inducements are the ones you may end up waisting. I'm talking about the chef and Wizard. That there is a possibility that they will fail completely always fazes me.

Enough rambling.
Summary:
The Inducements are definitely not undercosted.

Coaches think the Wiz lost his ZAP! because no one used it? Was it a 2+ like the card?

If so, and if the Wizard ever got his ZAP! back, that would be the only spell I'd ever use.

"Nice +ST CLAWPOMB Warrior dey got over dere...ZAP! Now 'e's a FROG! List'n up men (or ladiez), first one a'ya ta stomp dat @$#%& gets a keg o'grog on me! NOW GET TA STEPPIN'!"

Man, I love that card.

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With 2 experienced teams, 2 solid coaches, and a set number of turns to play, being able to just drop someone from anywhere is huge. There is no middle ground like with fireball, where you can hit some folks not others, and how your oppenent sets up affects how useful the spell is. And the flip side again, if it misses it's completely useless at 150k.

I liked the Frog, would LOVE to see more wizard spells like that. The old stat-boost for a turn spells were nice also. Current wizards are oversimplified.

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Eldril Sidewinder seems cheap at 200K.