Talk Fantasy Football

Sorry to make this a separate thread, but it seems like this issue could be specifically addressed separately without derailing the other Khorne threads that do exist (and seem perpetually plagued by comments about fluff). Mods may, of course, feel free to lock this if they think it doesn't warrant a separate thread.


There are a lot of complaints going on about Khorne not fitting the fluff. My understanding, though, is that Khorne does not yet have any Blood Bowl fluff, so I don't see how it can already be so violated. Sure, BB Fluff should loosely draw from Warhammer Fluff, but they sure as heck can't be equivalent. Someone else (forget who, sorry) made the wise observation that if BB Khorne followed Warhammer Khorne fluff the team would show up, slaughter the stadium worth of fans and bathe in their blood. etc. etc. etc.

Can a the Cyanide Khorne roster fit a reasonable BB-version of Khorne fluff? I think so, and here's why:

Pit Fighters: This seems to be the biggest gripe. I don't see it as an issue and think it fits nicely. If you're a human who subscribes to Khorne's ways, then you love the thrill of violence and the spilling of blood. So in honor of your Blood God, since there really isn't any war in the BB world, you probably spent your pre-BB career / off-season time fighting to the death in various pit fights and gladiatorial games (and Pit Fighters / Pit Fighting have been a hallowed staple of GW Specialist games from Necromunda all the way through to Warhammer Quest, so why not have a place for it in BB? Specialist Solidarity!). Perhaps those who spilled the most blood in the pits get recruited by Khorne Demons to put their violence to good use on the pitch by building fame and fans for Khorne.

And I know what you nay-sayers are still thinking ["WELL WHY THE #&@ DO THEY HAVE PASSING ACCESS??!"]

Fair enough, but pit fighters and gladiators likely have opportunity to become pretty well versed in throwing weapons like javelins and axes. And it's a lot easier to hurl a football fairly accurately than it is to launch a big heavy throwing axe. So there, works for me. ["BUT THEY'RE ONLY GONNA TAKE LEADER, NOT THROWING SKILLS!!!!!!!"] Fine, maybe in their pit fighting career they became a leader (just think Russel Crowe's Gladiator) or some form of Pit Boss.


We can tackle the demons in a bit, but figured I'd start with the Pit Fighters, as they have clearly been the target of most of the vitriol.

you are incorrect, Khorne does have fluff from bloodbowl alone. They had a team, it killed everyone in the other team the one time they played, they rode juggernauts, steeds were banned from this point forth.

So even in bloodbowl they were still powerful killers. this roster is not.

edit: I will look it up when i get home at work now, so cant give you much more than that. There was also bloodletters in 4th ed gold too, and a thirster.

here you go - http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://ww ... i22iKeHFkg

Ok, so no super-killer steeds are allowed in BB anymore. From the implications of the fluff, it sounds like what made them super-killers was their ban-worthy juggernaut steeds. This team lacks super-killer steeds. Seems to not violate the very limited fluff that is currently available.

Also, perhaps that super-killer Khorne team was a Chaos Roster (ie, not Demon team) on juggernauts. And Chaos are still the super-killer team. Khorne DEMONs might be incredibly different from Khorne HUMANS/BEASTMEN.

they werent though, check 4th ed gold they were st5. and had frenzy, alot more like bloodletters than the current roster. link is above.



personally I wouldnt have liked it but they could have included one a SW, since they are now illegal, and made it like the deathroller, would have been fluffy, and different. Not to my taste really but still would have been better than what they gave us.

Nothing like that was a possibility, Garion.

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not what this thread is for dode, but since you are on the subject, it still doesnt explain why bloodletters differ so much from the already in bloodbowl bloodletters from 4th ed. and from every other incarnation of them in any game fro that matter.

No, the thread is for coming up with suitable fluff to explain the current roster. What it's not for is bringing up previous rosters and saying "we should have had that", and yet that is what you did.

Now, according to previous fluff (which is no longer in LRB6) Khorne was banned from the game for killing everyone, you say. How about working from there, starting with the fact that to be allowed to play (and remember that Nuffle is the God who presides here, not Khorne) the Khorne team were forced to curb their homicidal tendencies on the pitch. What this didn't do though, is prevent them from creating carnage off the pitch. Khorne team home stadia are traditionally surrounded by sacrificial pits into which fans, and often players, are hurled for ritual sacrifice to appease the Skull Throne.

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www.FOLeague.com - the largest moderated Cyanide open league

On the one hand I disagree strongly that any species should be based on DYK. If vamps were based on theirs ("team hunted down and killed by fans for being completely useless"), they would not be playable at all.

On the other hand I disagree equally strongly with those that say that the BB universe and the Warhammer universe are totally unconnected, or that it is OK for the connection to be supremely flimsy.

Cheers
Martin

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Khorne aren't fluffy.... Flaky, yes... puff-y, yes....

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No Pitfighters in ANY Khorne fluff, let alone in BB fluff.
Any Khorne in WFB (which BB is derived from) doesn't do shooting so P access is doubly stupid.


If you have to stretch as far as the OP, then that's a sign you've got it wrong.

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Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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Yea! Remember all that Leaping those Slann do in Lizardmen army lists! etc.

Remember the leaping Slammed did in 2nd ed BB, and WFB and 40K. That team acknowledges existing fluff from three systems, the Khorne roster's acknowledge none.

_________________
Fundamentalist for the BB Illuminati
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
Home of the ARBBL - We lose, so you don't have to.
#24 in the "24 club"

Pit Fighters: Before the day that the Blood Bowl rules were rediscovered there were many who plied their trade as Stadium warriors in the pit fighting circuit. Some of these men and women were devotees of the great Chaos God Khorne. These professional killers were left without an audience when the resurrection of Blood Bowl led to all the Stadiums being converted for Blood Bowl use. inevitably these pit fighters joined the Blood Bowl circuit to venerate Khorne in the chaotic warzone of Blood Bowl.

Something like that makes sense to me anyway.

The Khorne fluff defenses I've seen have been so totally backwards.

Game mechanics and balance are vital to a good game. I think most of us can agree to that.

However, a game like Blood Bowl is also vitally connected to its "High Concept". The High Concept for Blood Bowl is fantasy races play a parody of American Football. It's intimately connected with being a comical take on sports and the GW, primarily Warhammer, universe.

When elements are drawn from the Warhammer background as inspiration for Blood Bowl it is absolutely essential that they honor the source material from which they are drawn.

Much changes over the years in the various GW properties, but there is probably no being or concept which has remained so pure in its concept over the many versions of GWs IP as Khorne.

Khorne is probably the most recognizable force in all GWs various properties. His battle cry, "Blood for the Blood God" unmistakeable.

If you are going to do a Khorne roster, you have to honor Khorne.

What seems to have occurred here is that Cyanide dictated the roster and the player-types to be included. They then offered Galak and team the opportunity to design the actual stats of the roster.

But this is where the game design went totally backwards. It appears that rather than looking at the essence of the Khorne concept-Blood, Violence, Frenzy, Raw Power and Strength- and then designing the team around those concepts, the design team instead tried to intentionally keep the team as far away from fitting Khorne's nature as possible instead latching onto the idea of Frenzy and the illusion of strength.

There is no force in the GW universe that is more connected to Strength, Raw Power, Violence, and Blood than Khorne. So, I think the efforts to side step most of those factors when designing this roster has completely undermined the fluffiness of the Khorne roster.

Let's look at the Pit Fighter defense:

Personally, I'm not opposed to the name of Pit Fighter. There seems like there are better choices, but Pit Fighters seem that they could be fanatically dedicated to the God of Blood and Frenzy.

The stats are baseline for Humans. Fine. To be expected. Frenzy. Cool. Give the roster a full Frenzy theme.

But then we get skill access. General and Pass? Pass access is a horrible kludge to give the team cheap access to a Leader RR. It has significant negative fluff value for a Khorne roster. Pass needs to go. They wanted no Mutation. Weird to deny it to a Chaos roster, but that's not the worse offense. Where is the Strength access?

Human Linemen, Dwarf Linemen, Norse Linemen, Beastmen, and many others all have Strength access. [edit: I'm a big dummy. No Normal Strength for Humans and Norse.]

Yet the Pit Fighting servants of the God of Blood, Strength, and Violence don't have Strength access on a normal roll?

Strength access is so obvious and proper for the theme of the position and the team. It makes no sense to be restricted, except from the game design perspective of trying to make a roster with limited Strength access. But Khorne is the absolute last force in the GW universe that you should try to design with a No Strength constraint.

But if you give them Strength, how do you restrict them?

Make them like Norse linemen with Frenzy instead of Block.

6 3 3 7 with GS/AP for 60k

Now you have a backbone for the team that is Frenzied for a wild and out of control theme and they have the Strength access to back it up, but they are fragile due to AV7, due to the fact that the Freznzied Pit Fighters don't bother wearing much proper armor, like the Norse.

This is the theme that should continue to the Daemons of the roster. Give real Strength and Strength access while making them fragile where appropriate and making them very difficult to control with Frenzy. That could have been the foundation of a Khorne roster that is limited in ability to win games, is not pure ClPOMB, but still honors the Strength, Power, and Bloodlust of Khorne. The Pit Fighters would be a start, but we'll tackle the absolutely worst fluff offense, the Bloodletters, later.

Seems a fine explanation for the concept of Pit Fighters.

I don't think there's a huge fluff barrier for the name. I think the skill access doesn't fit the name of the position or the nature of Khorne.