Should CDs have been given Mutation access?

garion · Post by **garion** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:25 pm

Just wondering what the general consensus here is?

Did Chaos Dwarves need that buff? If so why do you think they did? If not why not?

Was there any need?

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:44 pm

The need is that they are Chaos Dwarves and according to the background mutate.

The problem is that CLPOMB is a bit too good, particularly in perpertual TV based MM leagues, and mutation access makes CD Blockers one of the few positions that can easily develop that combo - only needing 3 skills (1 double) to do so.

If Claw didn't combo well with the other skills do you think it would be a problem?

garion · Post by **garion** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:17 pm

Thier background says they have mutants, it doesn't say the Chaos Dwarf blockers/warriors themselves mutate as far as I can remember? But I may be wrong?

I personally don't think Claw + MB is a weapon that a team with mostly Av9 should have. The Claw MB combo is one that is meant to hurt high Av teams more than others and even out attrition amongst all teams, for one of these av9 teams to have the combo seems wrong to me. Even if we disscount Pile Ons existence which makes it even better. I personally still don't think they should have this tool.

Personally I dont think it fits the fluff either for a Chaos Dwarf to be a mutant. If they had a 0-2 positional that mutated fair doos. But that would be too much of departure from their traditional 3rd ed roster for most, me inlcuded.

Edit: Just checked some fluff and it says some dwarves got tusks and Hooves (which explains the second ed model CD with his tongue out and goats legs) but nothing about the other Chaos Mutations. They also do not pray to the same gods as chaos, so to me I don't think they should be given those mutations, fluff wise it doesnt seem to fit yet. Will keep digging though.

Edit edit: found more fluff which say - Hashut the CD god that they pray too etc.. "rarely" mutates CDs and when it does happen it is only in his form, so turnign them in to Bull Centaurs basically. Again nothing to do with the other mutations that are so commonly associated with Chaos and Skaven.
Also Hashut was exiled by the chaos gods for challanging Khorne and getting beaten down. So CDs certainly will not be praying to the other Chaos Gods on the side.
So again the mutations are specifically talking about making Bull Centaurs mostly, so again i dont think the fluff fits.

Final Edit I hope - Quote - "The power of Chaos has warped their appearance only slightly, usually only giving them tusk-like teeth. On rare occasions, some Chaos Dwarfs develop bull-like features, cloven hooves, and even horns." more to support them only transforming in to bull centaur like creatures, nothing to do with the Chaos and Skaven mutations.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:43 pm

garion wrote:Thier background says they have mutants, it doesn't say the Chaos Dwarf blockers/warriors themselves mutate as far as I can remember? But I may be wrong?

I personally don't think Claw + MB is a weapon that a team with mostly Av9 should have. The Claw MB combo is one that is meant to hurt high Av teams more than others and even out attrition amongst all teams, for one of these av9 teams to have the combo seems wrong to me. Even if we disscount Pile Ons existence which makes it even better. I personally still don't think they should have this tool.

Personally I dont think it fits the fluff either for a Chaos Dwarf to be a mutant. If they had a 0-2 positional that mutated fair doos. But that would be too much of departure from their traditional 3rd ed roster for most, me inlcuded.....

I can agree with that!

MattDakka · Post by **MattDakka** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:44 pm

In WHFB 4th edition they didn't mutate because the Dwarfs are resistant to magic, this explained why they had no chaotic mutations.
Their sorcerers turn slowly to stone when using magic, for the same reason above.
In their White Dwarf articles collection "army book" they had no mutations.
Bull Centaurs are blessed by Hashut and this gave them their bull body.
BB 3rd edition Chaos Dwarfs followed that fluff, I don't know why they can get mutations now.
They could perform quite well even without mutations. Claw, when added to Mighty Blow and Piling On is an overkill for a team already quite bashy.

dode74 · Post by **dode74** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:47 pm

I thought BB fluff was distinct from WFB fluff.

garion · Post by **garion** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:52 pm

Edit: I justy got ninja'd by MattDakka, Was about to say the same, their Magic resistance stops them mutating. Again the only mutations occuring are when Hashut turns one into a Bullcentaur.

So I think thats fairly conclusive that from a fluff perspective it is incorrect.

From a balance perspective I also think it is incorrect. For the reasons posted at the top of the page and in short - Basically they just dont need Claw, they are already perfectly good bashers with nice cheap expendable linos for fouling with and incredible ball carriers after 2 or 3 skills.

I thought BB fluff was distinct from WFB fluff.

Its just not though, it is the same world in a parralel universe, the wars just stopped at a specific point in time (when the Orcs and Dwarves found the BB rule Book) and that is when it changes someone will know the year off the top of their head. The background around how the races were formed etc is the same.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:55 pm

I think it is a throwback to 2nd ed. BB fluff - which is distinct from WFB fluff (which in 3rd ed. rubbed off on BB fluff, at least for a time).
I suppose 'CDs rarely mutate' is why they get it on doubles, not singles.

Oh, I've got a sourcebook for the Warhammer World somewhere that claims that Hashut may be another name for Tzeentch, the changer of ways.

But frankly, I don't much care either way.

MattDakka · Post by **MattDakka** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:55 pm

dode74 wrote:I thought BB fluff was distinct from WFB fluff.

In theory yes, actually no.
Nurgle is clearly from WHFB lore, for example, same god of decay, plague and diseases.
It's not a coincidence.
Khemri is from WHFB lore clearly, they are not "generic egyptian flavoured undead", they are called Khemri.
Skaven, Gutter Runners etc. are clearly taken from WHFB, they are not RatMen.
Altdorf stadium, Reikland Reavers refer to WHFB Empire.

spubbbba · Post by **spubbbba** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:58 pm

In fantasy 3rd edition Chaos Dwarfs did mutate, in fact pretty much everything in the Chaos army could get mutations even things like Orcs and goblins.
They were less likely to get mutations than some other chaos followers as dwarfs are resistant to magic. I believe 2nd edition BB followed the fluff from fantasy 3rd edition more closely which is why the BB Chaos Dwarfs could get mutations.

That being said, I don’t think fluff should get in the way of game balance, otherwise mutations should be random and sometime bad like they were in the old days.

dode74 · Post by **dode74** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:59 pm

Fair enough on the fluff, but what is your source for that? Not "everyone knows..", but something written by a fluff writer. I get the comparisons and how a lot of stuff is the same in the two, but that doesn't mean that this is.

From a balance perspective I also think it is incorrect.

If you invoke balance then I get to invoke stats

For a statistical perspective, CDs are one of the top teams (3rd), but their win% still at the top end of the designated tier 1 bracket (45-55%). This is true even in which is an environment which rewards minmaxing, something CDs are perfectly designed for. In other words, from a balance perspective they may not need it, but they are balanced (as defined by the tiers) with it.

Greyhound · Post by **Greyhound** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:03 pm

It's only on a double so I don't have a problem with it. I see your point though, Claw is the only mutation the CDs really take. Maybe some lunatic out there might be tempted to waste a double on:
- Disturbing presence, in a pass-heavy league
- Foul appearance (although dodge might arguably be as interesting)
- Prehensile Tail (but I think I'd prefer diving tackle, especially since they already have tackle)
- Tentacle (it would require a ST boost to make it worth it)
- Horn, yeah, potentially on a rainy day

Most other mutations are really not helping them:
- Big Hand (really with AG2 and low MV player?)
- Two Heads (he has tackle, he can punch through most stuffs very well why dodge)
- extra arm (not really ball carrier or catcher material)
- VLL (Seriously, this is just a short man trying to compensate nothing more)

so all together really you are talking solely about MB/Claw/Pile On, not all mutations. I don't have any problem balance wise with all the other mutations.

garion · Post by **garion** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:25 pm

dode74 wrote:Fair enough on the fluff, but what is your source for that? Not "everyone knows..", but something written by a fluff writer. I get the comparisons and how a lot of stuff is the same in the two, but that doesn't mean that this is.

All the information I have found points to CDs only mutating into Bull Centaurs, or part of the way there. So I would go so far as to say, yeah it is just wrong that that they have mutations fluff wise.

Check through all this stuff if you like -

http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/wiki/index.php/Chaos_Dwarfs
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/wiki/index.php/Hashut
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Dwar ... rhammer%29

@Greyhound - yeah Claw is all they will take because it is the only one they can really take advantage of. So why give them access to mutations on doubles when the race is only going to take one of those skills? Especially when it doesnt fit the fluff. Sounds like bad design to me. And im not talking about CPOMB being too powerful. Im jsut saying they dont even need the Claw MB part, as they are an av9 team.

It is just common sense, just stop and think about all the Av 9 teams and what they have to offer. Now Chaos Dwarves can stand up to any of them and all of them without Claw, so why give them access it?

It just seems to me that they thought- "lets give CDs Mutations again, they had them in 2nd ed, so it will be a cool throw back" without considering how fluff had changed over the years or considering whether or not they actually need to be give mutation access just for 1 skill.

Post by **Thadrin** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:32 pm

Pre hensile Tailcould be fun in combo with Stand Firm on a couple of players, assuming you wanted to vary your team a little bit.
I'd be sorely tempted to house rule "no more than 2 of any mutation per team (except Underworld)" in any league I ran.

Corvidius · Post by **Corvidius** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:40 pm

I have less issue with the av9 than I do with the Block, Tackle combo'd with Claw, MB, PO, and I suppose they have Av9 AND Thick Skull as back up. Throw in some Guard and you have the ideal blockers.

Saying that, the part I have least objection to is the Claw so not overly bothered by the mutation access.

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