BB mag 4 & Vampires

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 6:55 pm

I would be ok for the team in one condition:
If the Lord dies,then the team is dibanded....
But as this, Vampire team wouldnt be allowed in tournament, cos we dont do the casualties result...

this is my 1000 Post

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 11:11 pm

I noticed that Galak's vamp teams don't have more than 4 vamps on them, probably what is wrong with this one - too many vamps. 4 seems to be the max to have on a team without it getting overpowered. This new team should be reduced to 4 vamps and add something else besides the thralls to give it a bit of variety.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 12:05 am

Okay let's leave the Halloweenie team out of it as that's meant to be the ultimate crap shoot team. (4 players who are good on 5+ each drive, and 4 player who show up on a 4+ each drive). A full team is just the ultimate in what shoud do I get today.

Okay looking at the Blood Lines you'll see several things. No OFAB, no apothecary, AND no Vampire Lords.

Now just line up the 5 Vampires:
0-4 Blood Dragon 130k 6/4/3/9 Mighty Blow, Regen G/S
0-4 Lahmian 160k 6/4/4/8 HGaze (+1), Regen G/A
0-4 Necrarch 140k 6/4/3/8 HGaze, Regen (3+) G
0-4 Strigoi 140k 6/4/3/8 RSC, FApp, Regen G (Tattoos access)
0-2 Von Carstein 160k 6/4/4/8 Tackle, Dodge, HGaze, Regen G/S/A

Now balancing the vamps by Blood Lines we ending up with a couple norms. A lot of the Vamps dropped to AG 3. ST 4/AG 4 came with a very steep price. Access to AG skills, but ST skills also meant a slash to the # allowed. AG 4 also meant 160k price for the Vamp.

Like I said so far they are working for us ... who knows if there are any way to take these vamps and create one decent team for using.

I kinda like Bud's (cervidal) version of OFAB. Done waxing.

Galak

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 12:14 am

Longshot wrote:I would be ok for the team in one condition:
(...)
this is my 1000 Post

Why your counter is still at 991 ?

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 12:18 am

Galak : i like your teams except Halloweenies (but I'm french and don't like Halloween in general

). If you change human thrall to skeleton it would be perfect (for me).

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 12:22 am

Galak, we already agreed on the 0-4, no OFAB, must play first proposition. Why are you taking discussion away from that?

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 12:28 am

cos It can be interresting to have different vampire line team for house rule. But I agree that the skill : "I'm your master, I play first" seems pretty good. (0-4 AG3 vampires should be balanced)

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 3:54 am

Zombie wrote:Galak, we already agreed on the 0-4, no OFAB, must play first proposition. Why are you taking discussion away from that?

Not really trying to take the conversation away. Just offering up other thoughts.

I have a gut feeling that the whole Vamps move first rule isn't going to fly well with the boys that mess with the rules. So I just wanted to think about other options.

If the team was 0-4 Vamps, no OFAB, must play first ... I would gladly accept that team. Lord or no Lord either way would be fine by me.

Just don't think this concept will get much airtime.

I like Bud's proposed change to OFAB to make it a pitch effect and then leave the team as is in BB Mag #4. That's another option I think has merit.

Multiple options is not steering a conversation away. I'd rather have choices on the menu and fall back plans when trying to convince the creator of the game that his new team sucks and he needs to change it. Having one game plan on that action is not sound military planning.

Galak

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:24 am

I like your offering, Galak, but I'm guessing that the powers that be won't go for different bloodline vampires. I know they say they want to bring Blood Bowl in line with WHFB but as soon as it means that will need to create 5 new teams they'll change their tune.

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:43 am

I like the idea of a modular vampire team, a little bit like what has been made with chaos roster some years ago (OK, those rosters were beardies...)... The base should be human thralls, zombie, and you should choose 0-4 special guys (guards, wights, ... depends on the team), and 0-2 vampires if no OFAB, or 0-4 with OFAB... Just an idea.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:36 am

I agree with a lot of what is being said here, but I want to bring in the perspective of a friend of mine who likes to coach vampires. Originally, I thought he liked it because he thought the team was strong and would win easily. While this may be true, the real reason is that he just likes the utter random nature of OFAB. It was probably for a similar reason that he chose to coach Ogres once - though I once played a game against him where he didn't roll a single 1 on the Bonehead roll.

Anyway, I think my friend would probably prefer the old OFAB and would like the vampire team to exist. Its almost entirely a flavour thing. I've no idea how you ensure it doesn't dominate though.

Cheers,
Martyn

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 11:35 am

martynq wrote:Anyway, I think my friend would probably prefer the old OFAB and would like the vampire team to exist. Its almost entirely a flavour thing. I've no idea how you ensure it doesn't dominate though.

Cervidal is winning the best fix award on this so far in my book.

Check out his suggestion for changing OFAB:
http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB/view ... highlight=

I think this rule has true potential to work.

Galak

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 11:43 am

I like the Carstein team Galak suggested (Carstein Vampires are still the only vampires to me), but I do think there should be AT LEAST 4 vampires allowed on a team, else it's just A team with SOME vampires added to it.

Furthermore, I think the Lord adds a lot of Character to the team and should still be in. If necessary as a Big Guy. Do remember that even a weak vampire would still be stronger, faster and more agile than any mere mortal!

I think it might just be impossible to make a vampire team that's balanced, still into the background and fun to play...

O a different note; maybe the vampires opponent should be allowed a special "Buffy roll" before the match.

Roll on a D6.
1. No result.
2-5 Buffy and her mates attacked the vampires on their way to the match. In the fighting that followed, D3 players on the vampires team got injured, before they managed to get away from her. Both vampires and thralls are affected, since the thralls are used to defend the escaping vampires from her
6 Buffy comes to play Bloodbowl for the opposing team!

They gain an extra player for this match only!

1 Buffy 7447 Block Dodge Tackle Mighty Blow"Stakes"

Buffy will always block a Vampire when next to one at the beginning of the turn. (This does not have to be the first action she takes however.)
She will only be interested in the Ball if there are no vampires left on the pitch and must always be fielded if there are any vampires on the pitch.
Furthermore, if at the start of the turn Buffy could make a Blitz against a vampire, roll a d6. At 1 or 2 she will, using up the team's Blitz for the turn.
"Stakes" If Buffy kills a vampire, it stays dead, and cannot regenerate. For other injuries caused by Buffy will only be regenerated on a 5 or 6.
The ref is too much into Buffy's Boobs to be looking at her stakes, and so she will not have to pass any weapon rolls!

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Fri Oct 25, 2002 9:39 am

Hi all,
like everyone else, I was thoroughly disappointed with the "new" vampire team.
Mind you, JJ tried to adress some of the problems with the old team, but he just didn't do a good enough job - the team is still too powerful. I guess this is what happens when someone who doesn't actually play the game designs new key elements for it.

I hope and pray that the BBRC will put the vampires right.

IMO, the problems with the team are:

1)OFAB:
Negative skills may be good for balancing 1 key player, but when the method is applied to the entire core of a team, it ends giving a way too big advantage to one of the coaches.

2)Lord:
why would a vampire lord even play BB? You don't see dwarf kings on the dwarf roster. Besides, a team with some very powerful players doesn't need an even better one.

3)Quantity:
New OFAB puts the _average_ number of available vamps at 4 (+ the lord). IMO, 4 without the lord would be fine. Now one way of beating a vamp team is by targeting the vamps. However, with 6 vamps and OFAB (+ regen) you need to nail 4 vampires just to drop the average to 3 available vamps!!

4)Fillers:
With such powerful players on the team (ST4 AG4), their henchmen need to be close to worthless, so that the opponent doesn't need to worry too much about them. The thralls are simply too good! They have decent stats, and can get the ball easy enough.

5)Skill access:
OK, it's a small thing, but GEN, AG, ST seems kind of excessive for these power houses. It doesn't really leave that much room for a weak spot.

IMO, all of these issues must be dealt with in order to balance the vampire team.
But what to do.........?

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Fri Oct 25, 2002 9:39 am

Hi all,
here are my suggestions on how to fix the vampire team:

*Like Galak, I don't think that the "vampires move first" rule will fly with the BBRC. Personally, I think that it would take away too many tactical options.
*Also like Galak, I'm convinced that there will not be 5 bloodline teams - at least I hope not. With those 5, would 5 skaven clan teams, forest/night gobbo etc teams be far behind?

I do however have a suggestion on how to include the bloodlines in the game: Make a vampire lord _star player_ representing each blood line. One might very well base these on Galaks excellent vamp teams.

I really like Galaks teams, and their 50/50 win record sound promising.
Interestingly, I too have been working on a vampire team, and for a very long time. It has been through 5 incarnations, with about 50 test matches for each.
What is interesting is that the resulting team is quite similar to the teams that Galak has arrived at!
This might mean that we're both on to something

My teams and Galaks (almost) all share these features:
No OFAB, no lord, no apothecary.
4 vamps, 4 useful minions, a few zombies, skeleton fillers.

So, here is a rough draft, combining all of this:
***Vampire Team***
0-4 150K vampires 6448 Regen, HGaze - G, AG
0-4 70K ghouls 7337 Dodge - G, AG
0-2 30K zombies 4328 - G
0-12 30K Skellies 5327 - G
70K ReRolls, No apothecary

The ghouls might be replaced by less useful wights, or even thralls.
Or, the ghouls might be 0-2, perhaps upping the zombies to 0-4.

A final note on the bloodlines.
Considering the background material, not all vampires are equally well suited for blood bowl. Surely, the seclusive Strigoi would not venture out to play BB, and the necrarchs are more likely to sit back and coach a "necromantic" team.

However, 1 bloodline has every reason to play BB. The Blood Dragons. Their whole existence is about searching out (and slaying) worthy opponent. Where better to look than the blood bowl arenas? This would mean a steady flow of opponents!

If the blood dragons were picked as _the_ vampire team, then I'd suggest giving them G+ST rather than G+AG skills. This would mean that they gain the ability to really bite back, but they would lose the easy access to blodge.
I actually think that this would make the team weaker.
I have in the past playtested a vampire team with G skills only, and their lack of dodge skill made Gaze a lot less realiable (since you need to be adjacent to use it).

Martin