How much is a point of "Cool" worth?

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Sat May 02, 2009 2:58 pm

Okay, so imagine that instead of points of Agility or Strength on Improvement rolls, players could get the following skills:

Cool - player counts as having one more point of AG for all rolls involving the ball.
Agile - player counts as having one more point of AG for all rolls not involving the ball.
Strong - player counts as having one more point of ST when throwing a block only.
Tough - player counts as having one more point of ST when the target of a block only.

Note that an extra point of AG is worse than +1 for some tests, mainly passing. This is intentional since Cool was not about passing in 2nd ed.

===

Preamble out of the way. What is the value of these skills? How strong are they in leagues and in tournaments? What would they be worth in terms of TV? In a tournament are they equivalent to a doubles skill? Or a normal skill? Is "Strong" better than Block in a tournament situation?

What do ya think?

Cheers

The Manj

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sat May 02, 2009 3:05 pm

cool = extra arms
agile = 2 heads
strong = horns
tough = +av

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Sat May 02, 2009 3:18 pm

Poor comprehension. And your point (other than trolling)?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sat May 02, 2009 3:22 pm

wasn't trolling those skills achieve similar things and already have costings

Post by **voyagers_uk** » Sat May 02, 2009 3:38 pm

Am not trolling either and sort of agree with dook (painful though that is)

I was going to say Spikes instead of +1AV

Maybe you just need to explain your goal statement more Joe.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Sat May 02, 2009 3:47 pm

They sound like good doubles skills and should come with the appropriate pricetag. Its possible that you might want to prohibit certain players from getting them but I think it should be ok.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Sat May 02, 2009 3:52 pm

Okay sure.

Basically I like the division of AG from 2nd ed, and think it works for ST too (offensive and defensive blocks). I've packaged them up as skills here, rather than trying to rewrite the basic rules. I just wondered what people thought the value of these specific "skills" or half stat increases would be. Not looking for alternative suggestions.

Btw, grum's comparison's are inaccurate.

Agile = Two Heads + VLL (leaping part) + value on Hypnogaze etc.
Cool = Extra Arms + quasi-Accurate.
Strong = +1ST when blocking, doesn't require a Blitz action.
Tough = +1ST when being blocked, nothing to do with AV.

I thought the descriptions were pretty clear.

My main goal is finding what people think these "skills" are worth. My hunch is that in a tournament you'd really have to think about whether to take "Strong" or Block for example.

Cheers
Joe

Ergukrael · Post by **Ergukrael** » Sat May 02, 2009 5:36 pm

“Any third-rate engineer or researcher can increase complexity; but it takes a certain flair of real insight to make things simple again.”
-E. F. Schumacher, Small Is Beautiful

In other words: Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Ikterus · Post by **Ikterus** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:55 pm

I for one think it sounds really interesting.

Especially the strenght ones... I can see a cather (Gutter Runner an such) having great benifit from Tough. For blitzers Strong is a no brainer...

The Ag ones are not as interseting. They get covered in various skills and stacking them might be too powerful?

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:22 pm

Ergukrael wrote:In other words: Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Joemanji isnt stupid. At least we dont tell him anyway that.... way to spoil things, we'll probably have to lose another bunch of tournies to him now

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:33 pm

Ergukrael wrote:“Any third-rate engineer or researcher can increase complexity; but it takes a certain flair of real insight to make things simple again.”
-E. F. Schumacher, Small Is Beautiful

In other words: Keep It Simple, Stupid.

a) This is simple. It's a skill description of less than one line.

b) If you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing. TBB has gone downhill simply because every attempt to have a discussion gets derailed by pointless trolling and inanities. We used to have interesting debates here, hard though it may be to believe.

Toby Wardman · Post by **Toby Wardman** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:52 pm

Joemanji wrote:Way to make a contribution Mr 7 posts. To think we used to have interesting discussions on this site.

Right, but hang on... it's actually a reasonable point. Adding +1 to a stat is a lot simpler than gaining a kind of half-stat-increase that adds +1 in some circumstances and not others. And when you're working out whether something is worth adding to the game, simplicity is a big plus. So what benefits would there be, do you think, to adding these quasi-skills - bearing in mind we already have both skills that give bonuses/rerolls to individual actions, and stat increases that give general bonuses? And do the benefits outweigh the added complexity?

Joemanji wrote:TBB has gone downhill simply because every attempt to have a discussion gets derailed by pointless trolling and inanities. We used to have interesting debates here, hard though it may be to believe.

For what it's worth - from a relative newcomer's perspective, TBB is actually a pretty tame and polite place, compared to many, many other net forums. For me, almost all the discussions are interesting and constructive. Perhaps I'm too jaded by the rest of the online world, but I've seen very little here that even begins to approach what I'd call 'trolling'.

Yours,
Mr 52 posts

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Sat May 02, 2009 9:20 pm

Toby Wardman wrote:Right, but hang on... it's actually a reasonable point. Adding +1 to a stat is a lot simpler than gaining a kind of half-stat-increase that adds +1 in some circumstances and not others.

No, it's not. In logical terms it is exactly the same. Situation > Is this skill applicable > If yes, apply. I'm making a Catch roll. Do I have Extra Arms? Yes, add +1. Do I have "Cool"? Yes, add one to my AG. Exactly the same level of complexity.

This concept is not complicated in the slightest.

Toby Wardman wrote:And when you're working out whether something is worth adding to the game, simplicity is a big plus. So what benefits would there be, do you think, to adding these quasi-skills - bearing in mind we already have both skills that give bonuses/rerolls to individual actions, and stat increases that give general bonuses? And do the benefits outweigh the added complexity?

Simplicity of execution is of course, very desirable. However, some degree of nuance is also desirable. The ability to desribe the varying abilities of different players is desirable. Oversimplification for its own sake is, however, not desirable. The 2nd edition separation of Agility and Cool is elegant and descriptive. My belief is that:

a) The current statline of 4 stats is functional and generally balanced if dull and lacking in any kind of nuance,
b) The game based on that statline is balanced and works, so there is no need to change it,
c) however the lack of nuance in the statline means that ST and AG increases create too large a swing, unbalancing some teams in league play,
d) a slightly more nuanced version of stat increases would be both more descriptive and less destabilising towards team balance.

Toby Wardman wrote:For what it's worth - from a relative newcomer's perspective, TBB is actually a pretty tame and polite place, compared to many, many other net forums. For me, almost all the discussions are interesting and constructive. Perhaps I'm too jaded by the rest of the online world, but I've seen very little here that even begins to approach what I'd call 'trolling'.

TBB is polite, no doubt. But it is also shallow and all debate that doesn't surround skill choices is drowned out by inanities before it has a chance to breath.

Ikterus · Post by **Ikterus** » Sat May 02, 2009 9:42 pm

To get back on track...

I think this might be too powerful.

S+ is the hardest "skill" to get, because it's probably the most powerful.

For a GR to get S3 when getting blocked is huge. For a Beastman to get S5 when blitzing is even better.

A thrower with Accurate and Cool (and pass most often) is very strong...

A Slann lineman with Agile (+Strong) and Strip Ball removes ballhandlers by the dozen.

I feel that the suggested skill are interesting but would maybe make skill choices more uniform and more boring as all four skills would be must haves (at least one or two) for most players.

Storch · Post by **Storch** » Sat May 02, 2009 10:04 pm

Joemanji wrote: My hunch is that in a tournament you'd really have to think about whether to take "Strong" or Block for example.

I would disagree.
Block increases your chances of successfully knocking someone down while staying on your feet by 1 in 6 or 16.7%. With block you will knock your opponent down 50% o the time (assuming no skills) vs. 33% without it.

Strong give you another die on most blocks. When you are hitting that means your opponent goes down and you stay on your feet 20/36 or 55% of the time. Strong is better than Block.

If you are getting hit, having block means you go down 33% of the time. Tough means you only go down 9/36 or 25% of the time. Again Tough is just flat out better.

The point is, compared to a ST+ they are each half as good. Each of these skills is demonstrably better than a normal skill but not as good as a double so, since, a ST+ is 50k, I would say a fair price would be 25k.