Ageing, how long should it take.

[Grumbledook]

its not against dice rolling thats the problem i tihnk its more to do with the extra time things will take up, i know rolling some dice for each player isn't exactly going to take a long time, but not everyone has the time to play a match due to the time it takes, making things longer would be best avoided unless it really is the best option.

[GalakStarscraper]

Okay ... really come on.

How freaking long does it take to make 16 D6 rolls.

Even if you have an all EXP 6 team ... with 16 players you'll be making 16 D6 rolls of which only the 1s and 6s matter and one your one 1 roll, you'll roll one 2D6 roll.

I'm betting one minute tops and that includes writing down the results.

I'm sorry but I just find the argument about dice rolls here to be nonsense for all the benefits that this offers.

Let me list those benefits:

1) Rookie teams get ramped up to their first skill faster than the current system making it easier for them to be competitive in the league.
2) Experienced teams receive significantly less SPPs than the current system (ie EXP vs MVP)
3) Getting a skill roll no longer has a possible penalty associated with it.
4) You can develop an effective star player with this system and he's targeted no more of less by the system than any other player.
5) The average player doesn't get his first permanent aging effect until his 22nd game. For leagues that restart each season that means they don't have to house rule to remove aging rules as they will essential not apply to shorter term leagues. Aging will only target the long term teams that aging was meant to add balance to in the first place.
6) Maintains the coach's choice as to who retires and who stays (ie doesn't force retirement)
7) Links Aging with the actual age of the player.
8) Removes the old problem of freebooters and dead players stealing your MVP.
9) Spreads out the SPPs. No more having one lineman with 3 MVPs and no other SPPs. This system even distributes the end of game points.
10) Actually encourages player turnover of older teams (ie 20+ games) better than the current aging rules ... ie it steps them up a little as was desired by several reviews of older teams under the current LRB rules.


Now to sack all this benefit because you have to make a dice roll for each player is silly ... sorry. I played Vampires in 3rd edition for a 13 game season. I had to make 10 OFAB rolls every drive and I did them all in like 30 seconds. It was no big deal at all. I didn't say ... oh I'm not going to play Vampires because I'm going to have to make 60 OFAB roll during a match. Come on guys, the dice rolls just are not a reason to kill this rule suggestion.

Galak

[Zombie]

Galak, i think you've been playing Blood Bowl online too long and have lost touch with the reality of playing a board game. Dice rolling has always been taken into account when introducing new rules, past and present. The aim is always to make the game smoother (i.e. less dice rolls) without reducing the strategic complexity.

I don't think your idea would pass with the majority of Blood Bowl players worldwide, especially when you take into account occasional players and beginners.

[Marcus]

Emperor Joseph II on hearing Die Entführung aus dem Serail:

"Too many notes, my dear Mozart"

[manusate]

Actually, I think that when comes to dice rolling, this EXP system is far better than current system.

Meaning, I´ve lost a LOTTA time searching for a damm d20 in order to make the MVP roll. Everybody seems to forget to bring those or, in case somebody brought one, it will vanish just when you are about to use it (Hey, I left it there!). And when you finally get to find it, (if able) you start rolling 20´s, 18´s, 19´s and three fours in a row. And, of course, number 4 is one of your free slots.

I´d take 16 d6 rolls rather than a single d20 roll any day of the week. This rule WILL save you time on the long run. Trust me.

D6 Forever!

[Snew]

Z, It's 1d6 for each player, an extra 2d6 for any "1". No big deal. Neat, clean, and WAY better than what we have.

[GalakStarscraper]

Galak, i think you've been playing Blood Bowl online too long and have lost touch with the reality of playing a board game.

I don't think your idea would pass with the majority of Blood Bowl players worldwide, especially when you take into account occasional players and beginners.

Just because I play on-line doesn't mean I don't play tabletop. One dice roll for each player on your team during the post game is nothing. I agree with Manu ... I spend more time pulling out my D20 and getting number for players that missed the game, niggled out, or 17+, then I would with 16d6 rolls ... (like I said I played Vamps for about year ... got really good at 10d6 rolls every drive)

I think given the 10 benefits I listed ... I'd bet my next paycheck that you are incorrect about worldwide opinion on this one.

I could simplify it to just this and get a landside favor vote:

Would you roll one D6 for each player on your team at the end of the game, if it meant that your average player would not suffer an aging effect until game 22 and that aging rolls where no longer linked to skill rolls?

Without going into any other benefits or explanations, I bet that 90%+ of Blood Bowl players would grab this in a heartbeat. Aging linked to skill rolls is fairly widely hated by that larger BB community. This changes the rules to address that resounding call and links aging back to the age of the player. If you think 16 dice rolls is going to stop someone from liking this system then you aren't rolling dice with anyone I played in the last 2 years.

On this board only you and Heiper have objected to the number of dice. Oh and this system works with the dice in the box. I've seen MANY a rookie coach in my tabletop league have to ask around and BORROW a D20 in order to roll for the MVP at the end of the game (in the time he spent asking to borrow one he would have finished his EXP rolls in half the time). Yeah you can do 1d16 by rolling a D6 and the D8 in the box and saying that D6 1-3 is the first 8 players and D6 4-6 is the 2nd, but I haven't found two many rookie coaches who come up with that little bit of math on their own.

Sorry Zombie, I find your stance on the dice making the system invalid just nonsense. Dice rolls didn't stop a number of leagues from using OFAB vampires teams 8D6 or more each drive. Dice rolls didn't make leagues house rules out Sweltering heat which makes you roll 11D6 every drive.

I mean what makes you really think that BB coaches would let 16D6 rolls stand in the way of a great idea. The game has many multiple player dice rolls, and I've yet to hear the complaint. Sorry Zombie, I convinced that you are not correct with your extrapolation of your feeling to the BB community on this one.

16 dice rolls during a post game would not stop a Blood Bowl player from a good rule. If all you can attack is the dice roll for this suggestion then its as good a change as I think it is.

Galak

[DaFrenchCoach]

Agree with galak on it. Even if I understand the goal of rolling less dice, if it's in order to simplify and to make the game faster... Hum... Sounds like something really natural during a game. Really. I would like to know how many times you roll dices during a game including dodges, interceptions, throws in, blocks, and more... Just play a game by counting every roll dice, and see if 16 rolling dices is a real waste of time.

[GalakStarscraper]

Galak, i think you've been playing Blood Bowl online too long and have lost touch with the reality of playing a board game. Dice rolling has always been taken into account when introducing new rules, past and present. The aim is always to make the game smoother (i.e. less dice rolls) without reducing the strategic complexity.

Oh sorry one other thing. If this were an in game effect Zombie, I'd agree with you without question or reservation. The aim for in game effects is smoother which I would equate to less dice rolls. So on that we agree.

The post game has no strategic complexity ... its the post game .. let see what I get. There are no strategic decisions to be made here, just rolls for money, skills, fame, and MVP. All this proposal does is remove the MVP and replace it with EXP. This system makes the aging rules and SPPs distribution from "MVP" a lot smoother. Your willingness to sacrifice a good system over a few extra dice rolls is interesting to me.

Also remember EXP rolls are for the majority of players going to be rolls to GET something. 15 games before the EXP roll has any downsides for most players. I haven't seen a coach in my life that wouldn't roll more dice to GET something.

Zombie, under 3rd edition did you EVER hear a player go ...
"What my opponent is 101 points of TR more than me ... I get 3 extra rolls for MVP at the end of the game ... No thanks, I won't roll for them, I rather have a smoother post game thank you."

I really just don't understand your position on this at all Zombie, it doesn't match up with anything I've seen in all my years of playing the game.

Galak

[Darkson]

16d6 is NOT an excessive dice to roll. How many dice do you roll during the game? A few more won't kill you.

Hell, one of my mates favourite 40K tactics was to cahrge into H-T-H with 2 units of Daemonettes - 48 attacks . If all people can do is complain about rolling dice, stop playing and play MAGIC

[Colin]

I would have to agree with what has been said already. This seems like a pretty good system and I don't think the dice rolling excessive. We're talking post game here so it really doesn't matter.

[Zombie]

Manu, you should just use a d16: they come in the box. You roll 1D6 and 1D8. The D6 gives you zero or eight. Add that to the D8 and you've got a D16. Simple and clean.

[Colin]

I guess I'm the only one who uses the chits that came in the box?

[Snew]

I still use the chits sometimes. I actually kind of like them. My wife made a small cloth bag we shake up and pull them out of. It also keeps them from getting lost. For some reason, we still use the d20. I'm actually sitting here feeling silly that I didn't think of the d16. I have to roll another die with my d20 because it has 0-9 twice and I haven't painted it or anything. Really a 20-sided d10.

[GalakStarscraper]

Manu, you should just use a d16: they come in the box. You roll 1D6 and 1D8. The D6 gives you zero or eight. Add that to the D8 and you've got a D16. Simple and clean.

See my post above where I already mentioned this fact as I knew you would bring it up Zombie... while I agree that this works ... the rookie coach that you said wouldn't like 16d6 is not going to figure out the d16 using a D6 and a D8, heck experienced coaches don't figure it out.

Galak