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 Post subject: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:22 pm 
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Its almost the same than LRB 6.0, but i realized one change the change is this, if there are a thrall adjacent to the vampire must feed couldn't choose stay angry. now the question, If i fail the blood lust and block i should feed before the block, even if i follow up and still adjacent a thrall ? and for blitz that include a block i must feed before the block?

Is a change because that seems i must feed before any action.

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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:47 am 
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Stick with the Icepelt/LRB6 version....

GW could elf-up a wet dream.... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:54 am 
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Digger Goreman wrote:
Stick with the Icepelt/LRB6 version....

GW could elf-up a wet dream.... :roll:


Nah i like this version, but is strange meanwhile tier 3 teams as Goblins and halflings are bumped, Ogres and vampires are nerfed. And i like vampires despite this nerf, i would play vampires.
Still i hoped some bump for vampires.

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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:32 am 
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Yeah, vamps are tough to play... the consensus seemed, before granny reared her ugly head, to put thick skull on the thralls....

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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:13 am 
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I'm thoroughly confused. I just compared three versions of the skill (CRP, ToL, and DZ2), and I do not see what you are talking about.
They (incorrectly) changed pronouns from male to gender neutral, but they did not change how it worked. Vampires could not "choose to stay angry" in CRP.

You feed at the end of the Action unless you pass, hand off, or score, then you feed immediately before making those rolls or scoring. Block and Blitz Actions are not included in the list of exceptions so you can not feed until the end of the action (after block dice, following up, etc.).

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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:25 am 
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CyberedElf wrote:
I'm thoroughly confused. I just compared three versions of the skill (CRP, ToL, and DZ2), and I do not see what you are talking about.
They (incorrectly) changed pronouns from male to gender neutral, but they did not change how it worked. Vampires could not "choose to stay angry" in CRP.

You feed at the end of the Action unless you pass, hand off, or score, then you feed immediately before making those rolls or scoring. Block and Blitz Actions are not included in the list of exceptions so you can not feed until the end of the action (after block dice, following up, etc.).


Thanks and the my bad is a while that i didn't read LRB 6.0, so is the same rule. Sorry for the confusion.

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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:11 pm 
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The wording has changed for a bit more clarity. The way it works has not.

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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:44 pm 
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This confused people on Facebook too for a while.

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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:44 pm 
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JT-Y wrote:
The wording has changed for a bit more clarity. The way it works has not.

I couldn't find any change except "his" to "their" style of pronoun change. What change did I miss that was done for clarity?

(I was wrong in a previous post. The gender was not changed incorrectly. It is proper to use "they" and its inflected and derivative forms as singular pronouns.)

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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:06 am 
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CyberedElf wrote:
JT-Y wrote:
The wording has changed for a bit more clarity. The way it works has not.

I couldn't find any change except "his" to "their" style of pronoun change. What change did I miss that was done for clarity?


Well, that is a change for clarity if you allow for the possibility of female vampires. (You know that some rules lawyer was all ready to argue that Blood Lust didn't apply to his vampires because they were lady Vampirellas.)

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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:08 am 
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Digger Goreman wrote:
Stick with the Icepelt/LRB6 version....

GW could elf-up a wet dream.... :roll:


Might be worth waiting for some independent confirmation of a problem next time, before you try to start throwing GW under the bus.

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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:22 am 
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Milo wrote:
Digger Goreman wrote:
Stick with the Icepelt/LRB6 version....

GW could elf-up a wet dream.... :roll:


Might be worth waiting for some independent confirmation of a problem next time, before you try to start throwing GW under the bus.


Never going to happen with some Milo lol

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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:49 pm 
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I know, I'm the spoilsport again but what do people think we have a whole RULES QUERY forum for?


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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:28 pm 
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Milo wrote:
... before you try to start throwing GW under the bus.


Ha! Now THAT POSITION would give them a uniquely novel, emphatic understanding of their past actions.... :lol:

:) Milo, little is one way or the other and depends upon where you start.... Take your presence on this site: I can admire your longevity with the game and its evolution (I would definitely include you in a Studs Terkel style history of BB) while lamenting the restrictions that working with the daemon puts upon you.... Someone else claimed you are acting as a cheerleader (apologist?) for gw.... While wishing otherwise... :| :( ... well, it must be making you happy on some level.... As the Grey Mouser quipped, "Every captain is a slave to his command." So the 'arrows of (mis)fortune' are yours to contend with....

:D In a Star Wars opening paragraphical BB universe, GW could've come clean with the gaming community, issued a blanket mea culpa apology, and offered that they had ideas (ala the old D&D expansions, perhaps?) to work and expand the BB universe. "I'm sorry," is a great start to any healing.... :smoking:

*reporting from "under the bus"*

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 Post subject: Re: [rules query] Blood lust DZ2
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Digger Goreman wrote:
Milo wrote:
... before you try to start throwing GW under the bus.


Ha! Now THAT POSITION would give them a uniquely novel, emphatic understanding of their past actions.... :lol:

:) Milo, little is one way or the other and depends upon where you start.... Take your presence on this site: I can admire your longevity with the game and its evolution (I would definitely include you in a Studs Terkel style history of BB) while lamenting the restrictions that working with the daemon puts upon you.... Someone else claimed you are acting as a cheerleader (apologist?) for gw.... While wishing otherwise... :| :( ... well, it must be making you happy on some level.... As the Grey Mouser quipped, "Every captain is a slave to his command." So the 'arrows of (mis)fortune' are yours to contend with....


Oh, believe me, I know GW has made some very serious missteps in the past. I wasn't directly involved because I had left the BBRC at that point, but I've heard the stories (and saw the changes in GW in general, the lawsuits and emphasis on the share prices over gaming.) But I also recognize that GW as a company is made up of many different individuals, from Jervis Johnson to Andy Hoare and many more in between. GW company policy may be set at times by upper management, and employees below must follow it REGARDLESS of whether they agree with it -- probably much like your own job and mine.

Even if you consider the GW policies misguided, or even EVIL, that doesn't mean that all of the employees become that way. Did Jervis decide to shut down the Specialist Games division? No, I'm sure that he did not. (Neither did Andy Hoare decide to start it, for that matter.) Do you blame the individuals for the company's actions? And, if the company changes those policies, as seems to be the case, will you continue to hold the decisions of the former CEO against the company in perpetuity?

What it boils down to, for me, is I love Blood Bowl. I have since I was first introduced to it as a teen in the 80s. I had a chance to get to know Jervis Johnson and Andy Hall during the BBRC days, and I found them to be honest, intelligent and motivated by the same love of the game I was (though I'm sure on some level they also enjoyed having a steady paycheck from their jobs.) I volunteered to Andy Hoare to help out in any way I could when BB2016 game out (even though he stole my job!), and I have found him and James to be in the same vein. In essence, good people who love the game and want to grow and enhance it, not just profit off it.

Am I a cheerleader or apologist for Games Workshop? Well, I reckon no amount of me disputing it will change anyone's mind if they've already made it up. I consider myself a cheerleader for Blood Bowl, sure, and always have -- from my days running the BBOWL-L mailing list, hosting bloodbowl.net, and the BBRC. My motivation for all of those was to support Blood Bowl and share my love for the game with others. And, having now met Andy and James, plus knowing more about their future plans for Blood Bowl, I would definitely defend THEM and, having some inside knowledge the average person does not, I can comfortably defend certain of their decisions which have been controversial (ex. limited quantities of some items for sale).

As tangible evidence of the change in company policy, I can cite:
[*] general adherence/reverence to the existing ruleset with no major changes to force people to buy new miniatures
[*] willingness to provide rules for teams and players which GW does not currently sell miniatures for
[*] decision to compete with other miniature vendors on price/quality instead of legal actions
[*] greater support from GW's events and WD teams for Blood Bowl
[*] willingness to involve outside playtesters to help review rules before release

Those all seem pretty good to me.

I guess there are two ways you can look at it. Do you say, "Milo is supporting that evil company, he's obviously just a corporate shill"? Or, might you say, "Milo's been supporting Blood Bowl for nearly 15 years now, and he's been pretty tied in. If he thinks that GW is being a good steward to Blood Bowl, maybe, just maybe, he knows what he's talking about"? Up to you to decide.

Digger Goreman wrote:
:D In a Star Wars opening paragraphical BB universe, GW could've come clean with the gaming community, issued a blanket mea culpa apology, and offered that they had ideas (ala the old D&D expansions, perhaps?) to work and expand the BB universe. "I'm sorry," is a great start to any healing.... :smoking:


Yes and no. Would that apology have made things better for the long-term BB fans here? I'd wager it might with some, but probably an equal number would have refused to believe it anyways -- just look at the skepticism (including from yourself) that you still see here. Would a public apology like that have hurt the adoption of the game to new players? It's certainly possible -- I can see it being offputting to be told "Sorry we screwed up Blood Bowl so much in the past. Also, please buy Blood Bowl!"

I think ultimately, apology or not, the proof is in the pudding. There have been mistakes, such as the terrible editing on DZ1 (mostly fixed in DZ2) and rules for G&C. But generally, if you look at everything GW has put out for BB2016, from the miniatures to rules, events and merch, they have done WAY more right than wrong. Some people may not LIKE the design of the new models, but that's true of virtually any figure -- personal tastes differ. For everyone that loves them, there's another that hates them. But the sculpts themselves are quality work in terms of detail and assembly, and the prices for the plastic models are particularly good, and having one more option for miniatures available for coaches can't be a bad thing, right? Some people don't like GW re-releasing the rules piecemeal, but they are providing substantial amounts of new rules, artwork and background material -- it's not like they're just selling the same old rulebook chopped into smaller pieces. Not only has GW been running BB tournaments again in Nottingham, they're also supporting worldwide play with things like Blitzmania, and a new article or optional ruleset for BB in almost every White Dwarf. Those are things that will drive new players to the game, which Blood Bowl can really benefit from. I really struggle to find a way in which GW's involvement in BB2016 has been a negative to the Blood Bowl community. (I'm willing to listen if you want to point some out, though.)

Coupled with the extensive range of third party figures and the stewardship of the international BB tournament scene by the NAF, I believe the BB2016 release and GW's renewed support really show that we're in a golden age for Blood Bowl right now. It's a good time to be a Blood Bowl player. I hope I can convince more people of that. Maybe that makes me a cheerleader after all, but I'm not getting paid by GW and I don't feel beholden to defend them.

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