Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

For Fantasy Football related chat that doesn't come under any of other forum categories.

Moderator: TFF Mods

Post Reply
User avatar
MacHurto
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 221
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:22 am

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by MacHurto »

Lyracian wrote:
While it is not covered in the rules the new Coaching Staff are like Star Players and I think they should be considered, like Stars, as "outside assistance" and thus banned in playoff matches (as per P26 DZ1). Personally I would put LRB Wizards in the same category and ban them during play-off games. While this does not actually stop the top dog spending Treasury it limited what they can usefully spend it on.
I think that rule from DZ1 for play-offs is horrible and if you add wizards it is even worse. If you are 500k below the other team, there are very few things to purchase with inducement money. And if you manage to get goblins/halflings to play-offs not inducing stars makes their chances even slimmer

Reason: ''
Lyracian
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:35 am

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by Lyracian »

MacHurto wrote:I think that rule from DZ1 for play-offs is horrible and if you add wizards it is even worse. If you are 500k below the other team, there are very few things to purchase with inducement money. And if you manage to get goblins/halflings to play-offs not inducing stars makes their chances even slimmer
Not allowing Stars in Play Off matches is the same rule as LRB 6 (see page 30) not a Death Zone Change.

Reason: ''
User avatar
MacHurto
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 221
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:22 am

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by MacHurto »

Lyracian wrote:
MacHurto wrote:I think that rule from DZ1 for play-offs is horrible and if you add wizards it is even worse. If you are 500k below the other team, there are very few things to purchase with inducement money. And if you manage to get goblins/halflings to play-offs not inducing stars makes their chances even slimmer
Not allowing Stars in Play Off matches is the same rule as LRB 6 (see page 30) not a Death Zone Change.
Thanks for the clarification. Still, I don't like it.

Reason: ''
anothericonoclast
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:31 pm
Location: Abingdon, UK

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by anothericonoclast »

garion wrote:
anothericonoclast wrote:But a bombardier can throw a bomb every turn they don't move and are standing up. And if you aim *next* to the ball carrier he can't catch it. And if you aim at the ball carrier, and he *doesn't* catch it, it's a 100% knock down, not a 50% knock down. And if you're caging the ball you possibly don't have too many high AG players, so intercept is not so likely. Bombs also scatter less even when inaccurate (3* scatter not scatter * d3).

Fumbling a bomb is more common. Also, a bombardier is one of your 11, so it's costing you a player. Both *feel* pretty similar in that they are random in effect and potentially game-changing in outcome. Play testing will tell if 80k is too cheap.
I'm not sure if you are serious or trolling. But I will take this at face value.
I wasn't intending to wind anyone up, so thank you for taking me at face value if I was inadvertently doing so. I may have been playing devil's advocate to some extent -- I'm genuinely trying to make up my mind about whether this is a good inducement or not. You make many strong points and when I received my copy on Saturday I was reminded of the MB effect of fireballs, which I had forgotten and further beefs up dodgy wizard inducement.

I've not played gobbos much (typically against my 9 year old son with him playing dwarfs so that the field is level!) but, yes, I have had a bombardier fumble...

Reason: ''
User avatar
garion
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:59 pm

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by garion »

its no probs anothericonoclast, hard to tell online sometimes :P

Anyway back on track...

What are the odds of getting these INfamous coaches turned in to "Optional Rules" rather than core in a future DZ?

I am yet to find a person that has a positive thing to say about them and their impact on the game. The majority of the people I am talking with have very big concerns with the the direction the game is going in light of Horatio. The other coaches are pretty irrelevant largely, but Horatio is causing people to seriously consider sacking 2016 off and returning to crp despite its obvious flaws.

Reason: ''
Calthor
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 5:40 am

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by Calthor »

I can't really think of anything positive to say about this infamous coaching staff as inducements, they are either ridiculous or problematic.

Reason: ''
User avatar
JT-Y
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1340
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:53 pm
Location: Chorley, where the police tazer blind people rather than look for the actual sword wielding lunatic
Contact:

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by JT-Y »

garion wrote:What are the odds of getting these INfamous coaches turned in to "Optional Rules" rather than core in a future DZ?
As per page 29 of DZ1 they already are. That's pg36 of LRB6, sorry but I don't have the CRP or Icepelt versions to hand to give exact page references for those, but the text is identical in all 4 sources.
You can leave out any Inducements you wish. It really makes no difference if including certain Inducements is an option, or excluding certain Inducements is an option, the result is the same.

Reason: ''

"It´s better to enlarge the game than to restrict the players." -- Erick Wujcik
stashman
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:12 am

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by stashman »

Is there any must play by rules in BB except when going to a NAF tournament.

In leagues - Commissioners do whats best for the group.

Reason: ''
User avatar
garion
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:59 pm

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by garion »

Come on guys, that's such a cop out. You must see that...

A lot of us want to play the official rule set. We want the official rule set section to be water tight and high quality. We shouldn't have to house rule out parts of the game because they are very badly designed.

By optional, I was referring to the silly rules being part of the "optional rules section" such as stadium upgrades and the like, as I am sure you are aware.

By putting the new wiz rules in the core rules section you are pushing the game down the path a very dicey game, and those of us that want to play the game using the proper rules are being backed in to a corner when this type of nonsense is added to the core rules. As I have already explained this new wizard has a very very bad synergy with the way inducements are now handled. Again if you guys designing the rules cannot see this, then something is going very wrong in testing.

As I said on the previous page the design/rule changes to date have showed great restraint and most people have commended you guys for it. Then we get this 80k, (which is too cheap for 2 fireballs) dicey as heck wizard who will be bought by the TV leader every chance they get.

Reason: ''
stashman
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:12 am

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by stashman »

A lot of us want to play the official rule set. We want the official rule set section to be water tight and high quality
And the rest that like the unsolid rules, or love the fluff and dice rolling and also have fun.

Two camps, will always be :-)

Reason: ''
User avatar
JT-Y
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1340
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:53 pm
Location: Chorley, where the police tazer blind people rather than look for the actual sword wielding lunatic
Contact:

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by JT-Y »

It's not a cop out, it's the way it's always been.

Look, everything after where it says ''Stop'' at the end of the core rules in every version of 3rd ed to date, from the original right through all the LRB's, the CRP, and into BB2016 is optional rules. It says it right there in the text. It's unchanged since 3rd ed was released. It says it again in the Inducements section and that's unchanged since Deathzone came along to accompany 3rd edition.

I'd say that what we really have is a commonly accepted convention where most players house rule that all the extra content is used. Now you have more of this stuff you want what, doubly optional rules? Optional optional rules? A section marked ''Do Not Use''?

People play without Wizards, Stars, cards, all the time. All manner of these optional rules are commonly dropped. And loads more are made up and added in. You're demanding GW give you what you already have Garion.

Reason: ''

"It´s better to enlarge the game than to restrict the players." -- Erick Wujcik
User avatar
garion
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:59 pm

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by garion »

While I do understand your position here for me and many others I know we will always use the core rules. As they should represent the most balanced form of the game.

Sure we may have the odd silly league with house rules left right and centre but the vast majority of games I play have always and will always be using the core rules.

I've made my point anyway. Hopefully somewhere down the line. Maybe another Blood Bowl release in a years times some of these stuff can be removed again, or pushed firmly in to the optional camp where PO currently lives and Referee characters etc...

I still like this edition, don't get me wrong, but this is the biggest flaw to date, along with the inducement phase that benefits the TV leader too much, sadly these two problematic rules are actually making each other worse as well.

What's done is done anyway. I hope we don't get too much more like this though. As it detracts from what is otherwise a great product, and the prettiest blood bowl book to date.

Now tell FW to hurry up and put Glart up for sale I want that fat rat!!! HAHA

Reason: ''
User avatar
Milo
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Contact:

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by Milo »

garion wrote:While I do understand your position here for me and many others I know we will always use the core rules. As they should represent the most balanced form of the game.

Sure we may have the odd silly league with house rules left right and centre but the vast majority of games I play have always and will always be using the core rules.
The core rules are BB2016: they talk about setting up a team, the conditions of the game ending and who wins, how to move and block players, and how to handle the ball. Everything else is some degree of optional.

Tournaments tend to hew pretty close to this, as many restrict multi-game injuries (part of the league rules in DZ1) and star player point generation, seeking a better competitive balance. On the other hand, most of them allow the full list of 21 (now 23) official team rosters, some amount of star players and inducements. Some even allow Slann. Many events attempt to balance the races by introducing tiering and additional benefits for worse teams. The NAF does a good job of publishing a well-balanced tournament ruleset for individual Tournament Organizers, but note that that itself is not the CORE rules -- it is a set of commonly accepted house rules which have become the de facto standard.

Saying that house rules are restricted to "the odd silly league" is disingenous. The "official rules" for leagues in DZ1 specifically state: "it is up to the [League] Commissioner to decide how to run their league, and they are free to change or modify any of the Blood Bowl rules as they see fit". Based on that, it is part of the official rules that a LC can make any rule "official". Take a look at the leagues and tournaments on the NAF website and you will see the majority of them have some separate rules pack that accompanies them.
garion wrote:I've made my point anyway. Hopefully somewhere down the line. Maybe another Blood Bowl release in a years times some of these stuff can be removed again, or pushed firmly in to the optional camp where PO currently lives and Referee characters etc...

I still like this edition, don't get me wrong, but this is the biggest flaw to date, along with the inducement phase that benefits the TV leader too much, sadly these two problematic rules are actually making each other worse as well.

What's done is done anyway. I hope we don't get too much more like this though. As it detracts from what is otherwise a great product, and the prettiest blood bowl book to date.
My above comments aside, please understand that all feedback provided, both here and in the various FB communities, is being read by the playtest group and we are not blind to valid points being made. (Feedback posted here is probably better since it is persistent and FB comments can easily be missed or overlooked -- but we're trying to read as much as we can.) Please keep giving us your feedback and understand that just because we don't overreact to it doesn't mean we are not considering a future response to it. Nothing we've seen so far as feedback seems to warrant an emergency errata like the issues in DZ1 did.

Take the case of Horatio:

1) At 80k, the overdog team would need to have a very high FAME, win the game, AND roll 5+ on the winnings table to make back that investment every game. At a realistic best, not counting the need to replace players, expensive mistakes or the need to save for post-season redrafting, an overdog could only hire Horatio every other game. Doing so may increase the chance of winning games, but it also means less money to spend on hiring new players and adding team re-rolls, both of which could have a more significant impact on your team's long-term success than Horatio.
2) If the overdog invests 80k of their treasury in Horatio, presumably the cost of hiring Horatio is lower for the underdog, who always has a chance to respond. If I have 80k in my inducements and my opponent hires Horatio, I'm definitely going to cancel that out, because not only does it help me in the game but it also hurts my opponent in the league, as they've poured real money into hiring him. Even if I have to add from my treasury, I'll do it.
3) While Horatio can be powerful, it's also quite possible he'll have no effect whatsoever. And if you hire him, your opponent can often adjust their tactics to make his spells less impactful.

Furthermore, if you and your leaguemates object to him, there are any number of ways you can address that:

a) Horatio may not be played in this league.
b) Horatio costs 100k in this league.
c) Horatio can only case one spell per game in this league.
d) If you hire Horatio in this league, you must play the entire game sitting on both of your hands.
e) Overdog teams who spend treasury in the inducement phase add that much additional inducement money for the underdog to spend.

So while it's possible Horatio may be an issue, I think he is not as big a problem as you worry he is, and there are any number of ways for him to be addressed in a league or tournament setting.

But again, GW is listening. If Horatio really is as big a problem as you fear, I'm sure something will ultimately be done to resolve it. That's one of the advantages of having an active development team who are open to feedback from the community.

Reason: ''
Milo


Image
User avatar
frogboy
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:20 pm
Location: South Wales

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by frogboy »

For anyone wanting to experience Death Zone Season 2 in a tournement setting I will be introducing some of the new rules (not the refs) at Foul Bowl this year, 24th June, so get yourselves signed up for this 4 game 1 day extravaganza today...

Or maybe just sit tight and wait for the aftermath (basically if your scared) :orc:

Click here to see full list if whats being included:- viewtopic.php?p=779414#p779414

Reason: ''
I'm a British Freebooter, will play for any team including Undead (I have my own Apothecary). Good rates.
User avatar
garion
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:59 pm

Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread

Post by garion »

Milo wrote:
garion wrote:While I do understand your position here for me and many others I know we will always use the core rules. As they should represent the most balanced form of the game.

Sure we may have the odd silly league with house rules left right and centre but the vast majority of games I play have always and will always be using the core rules.

Saying that house rules are restricted to "the odd silly league" is disingenous. The "official rules" for leagues in DZ1 specifically state: "it is up to the [League] Commissioner to decide how to run their league, and they are free to change or modify any of the Blood Bowl rules as they see fit". Based on that, it is part of the official rules that a LC can make any rule "official". Take a look at the leagues and tournaments on the NAF website and you will see the majority of them have some separate rules pack that accompanies them.

Sorry i think there may have been some misunderstanding somewhere here. Just to clarify - When I was talking about the "odd silly league" that was not a generalised point. I was saying that I (just me and the leagues I am in) do not play in house ruled leagues. That there is a rare occasion where I will play a silly league filled to the brim with house rules. But for the most part I want to use the official rules to the letter.

I just thought I should clarify that I wasn't inferring that other leagues were silly, or that house rules generally are silly. Just that there are a number of us that want to stick to the rules to the letter of the law.
Milo wrote: But again, GW is listening. If Horatio really is as big a problem as you fear, I'm sure something will ultimately be done to resolve it. That's one of the advantages of having an active development team who are open to feedback from the community.
This is very good news!!!

I am very pleased to hear (consistently now) that the game is doing so well that there is a lot of talk already of things happening really far down the line.

Viva Blood Bowl!!! :P

Reason: ''
Post Reply