What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhammer?

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by Darkson »

harvestmouse wrote:But you haven't shown me, I still believe I'm right and you are wrong.
He gave you a link with a post from the BBRC member that was heavily involved in the PBBL/CRP rules that confirmed you don't have to buy players - how much more proof do you want?

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by dode74 »

Darkson wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:But you haven't shown me, I still believe I'm right and you are wrong.
He gave you a link with a post from the BBRC member that was heavily involved in the PBBL/CRP rules that confirmed you don't have to buy players - how much more proof do you want?
This.

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by harvestmouse »

dode74 wrote:
Darkson wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:But you haven't shown me, I still believe I'm right and you are wrong.
He gave you a link with a post from the BBRC member that was heavily involved in the PBBL/CRP rules that confirmed you don't have to buy players - how much more proof do you want?
This.
Really Dode? That's pretty low. I have the choice to answer Darkson or leave it be. 'This' does you know favours in the gentleman stakes. I have absolutely no interest in winning internet debates, win the debate if you like with your 'this'. I know the quote. I know you regularly quote the quote. You know I was fully aware of the quote before I got involved in this debate and therefore disagreed even so. I've also stated that the issue is likely to go away if the real problem is fixed.

I have 3 critical responses to that quote, however I simply don't want to go down that road. It's not in my or anybodies interest as it won't solve anything and just cause more unnecessary debate and issues.

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by Dr. Von Richten »

WhatBall wrote: Had this been the case, BB would have (imo) been dead many moons ago. It would be played out in very small obscure leagues here and there and would have a small fraction of the support it has now. I personally have no time or desire to play TT at all anymore. I don't have any urge to go to a tournament.

Fixing perpetual online play is actually key to keeping BB alive for years to come. It is very possible to fix the game mechanics and alter very little of the way it runs now for TT and tournaments.
What kept Blood Bowl alive through all the years of GW neglect (and final 'termination') is the international tournament scene*, which started in 2001 or 2002 (before FUMMBL or Cyanide) and brought people together who shared a love of the game and a desire to keep it going and improve it from 3rd edition onwards, up to the CRP (Edition 3.6, I like to call it). The people behind the BBRC, CRP, the NAF etc. are all tabletop players, and mostly tournament goers.

FUMMBL is a substitute for when a TT league is not available (formally, you're required by GW to own a copy of the Blood Bowl tabletop game to be allowed to play on FUMMBL**) that took on a life of it's own and is now accusing its creator for not being strict enough to keep it from abusing itself. Seriously, if you create a system where random players can face each other in perpetuity on the internet in a game that was never designed for this and then complain that it's being abused, you have only yourself to blame.

*Well, and of course the fact that it's a great game and has been so even in the original 3rd edition (I have no experience with earlier versions)! :D

**Never mind that this is totally unenforcable, or that GW doesn't even sell the game anymore.

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by dode74 »

Harvestmouse - I just wanted you to know I had read your comment and had nothing more to add than what Darkson said - he summed up what I would have said myself. My intent was not to upset you but to let you know that.

I'd love to hear your critical responses. I am actually interested to know if you have something to say or are, as you appear to be, sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la" when that quote is mentioned. What you're doing right now is saying "I could argue with you but choose to spare you from it", which I believe you have more self respect than to do.

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by plasmoid »

PS - I was around and deeply involved back in the day when PBBL/CRP was developed.
I'm absolutely 100% sure that journeymen were intended to be voluntary.
It was openly discussed.
I assume that it will carry Little weight. But there it is.

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by A-r-c-h-o-n »

Dr. Von Richten wrote:What kept Blood Bowl alive ... is the international tournament scene...
In other threads here in this forum there was the discussion, that there are less TT-tournaments then a couple of years ago and the people who turn up register later (and are not so many anymore), so that organizers are forced to either take a financial risk or chancel the event altogether.

So, yes the TT-scene kept BB alive. But it wasn't able to expand and is growing older. On the other hand there is an influx of young and new players introduced to BB through the PC-Game. I would guess that this player-base is (or will be) the majority of BB-players in the future, simply because they are young and have a platform, that's more modern, cheaper (in the long run after steam-sales) and more casual to use (time wise).

And yes, I think it would be important to address the concerns of this growing part of the community. By changing the enviroment, the rules, the mindest... whatever it takes.
Maybe it's not the majority here at TFF, who thinks so - but I think it would be important for the furture of BB.

And I also don't get how one could read the quote from Galak and come to a different conclusion to what he/BBRC ment then ... well ... exactly what he said in the quote. I also would like to hear the arguments...

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by Darkson »

A-r-c-h-o-n wrote:In other threads here in this forum there was the discussion, that there are less TT-tournaments then a couple of years ago and the people who turn up register later (and are not so many anymore), so that organizers are forced to either take a financial risk or chancel the event altogether.
That wasn't what was said in other threads. There are now more TT events and overall more players, but they are spread thinner, don't travel as much (on average) and often leave it later to pay. There are more NAF games each year for that few iirc.

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by straume »

Darkson wrote:There are now more TT events and overall more players, but they are spread thinner, don't travel as much (on average) and often leave it later to pay.
Is there any data to support this or is just a gut feeling?

I would assume more players = generally more travelling.

Especially so to the big events. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn`t the World Cup just growing like crazy? And the biggest Eurobowl ever was the last one? And the biggest NAFC was last year (with a slight decrease this year, due to WC)?

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by Fassbinder75 »

NAF games have declined slightly since peaking in 2012 IIRC. Growth was consistent from 2003 up to that point. The game is still growing in parts of Europe but there was a marked decline in games in 2013-14 for the Anglo countries.

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by Darkson »

straume wrote:Is there any data to support this or is just a gut feeling?

I would assume more players = generally more travelling.
Only going from what people like Joemanji and Sann have said - I neither have the time nor the inclination to trawl through all the NAF pages. ;)

The travel bit comes from personal knowledge and talking to guys on the local scene. When I starting tournaments I had to travel around the country (from the south of England) to make events, just because they were the only ones running. At the start there was one local event for me, then the next closest was London then beyond. Nowadays there are approx 12 events a year that I can easily drive to and from each day (if I don't want to pay for hotels) just in the south, meaning that looking at events further afield has slid down the chart in appeal.

Of course, there are still coaches that will travel to events across the country and beyond (and I'm ignoring the WC as that's a special case [gutted I have to miss it]), but there's not as many as it used to be.

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by WhatBall »

Dr. Von Richten wrote:FUMMBL is a substitute for when a TT league is not available (formally, you're required by GW to own a copy of the Blood Bowl tabletop game to be allowed to play on FUMMBL**) that took on a life of it's own and is now accusing its creator for not being strict enough to keep it from abusing itself.
FUMBBL is a substitute to some (which is fine), but to those like myself, it is the sole source for my hobby. I have probably invested more time into keeping BB alive in my own way than most TT players.

Not sure if the owning a copy of BB was a jab or just an aside, but I started playing BB around 89/90 I think and own 2 3rd editions with the folding board, an astrogranite 1st or second edition board, the Death Whatever expansion, and a bunch of old edition teams and star players. They are all packed in a box and I have no desire to open them at all.

Not sure what the abusing itself stuff is about, will leave that be.

This is a pointless circular discussion. I will leave it at that.

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by harvestmouse »

WhatBall wrote:
Dr. Von Richten wrote:FUMMBL is a substitute for when a TT league is not available (formally, you're required by GW to own a copy of the Blood Bowl tabletop game to be allowed to play on FUMMBL**) that took on a life of it's own and is now accusing its creator for not being strict enough to keep it from abusing itself.
FUMBBL is a substitute to some (which is fine), but to those like myself, it is the sole source for my hobby. I have probably invested more time into keeping BB alive in my own way than most TT players.
Seconded. I don't know many who have invested more in time, talent and creativity as Whatball.

Yeah I'm not sure I understand your point either Dr. Von. You're right that it was a condition on joining FUMBBL that you had a copy or the BB game. You had to accept the site rules and conditions and it was self governing rule. As to now..........yeah I don't think any of us know where that rule stands and is kind of a moot point.

GW never had any issues with this rule or how it was controlled. This (like TFFB) was not why FUMBBL got a C&D letter. That was made very clear it was hosting the following. Links to the upload of Java Bowl, links to the official game rules, hosting GW IP such as pictures of GW figures or drawings etc. The last one is a bit crazy as that was free advertising. I myself bought and painted a citadel Orc team 'purely' to use the pictures on FUMBBL.

Look; I, like Whatball have totally fallen out of love with figures and TT. Why exactly, I don't know. I was a massive lead head, my collection of BB figures will beat almost anybody. I'll also readily admit this is a TT game and that is it's true form. However the sooner everybody lets go of the 'them and us' crap the better for everybody.

The better we can make TT and online environments. Resurrection, perpetual open and short/long term leagues (without necessarily changing any rules) the better for everybody.

Let's stop with the 'them and us attitude', there is no them.

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by Stout Youngblood »

harvestmouse wrote: ...the sooner everybody lets go of the 'them and us' crap the better for everybody.

The better we can make TT and online environments. Resurrection, perpetual open and short/long term leagues (without necessarily changing any rules) the better for everybody.

Let's stop with the 'them and us attitude', there is no them.
Completely agree.

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Re: What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhamme

Post by Baduk »

harvestmouse wrote: However the sooner everybody lets go of the 'them and us' crap the better for everybody.

The better we can make TT and online environments. Resurrection, perpetual open and short/long term leagues (without necessarily changing any rules) the better for everybody.

Let's stop with the 'them and us attitude', there is no them.
This! :P




Can we still bash Grandma though? :?:

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