Proposal for New Rosters

[spubbbba]

That's true, I'd much rather have 18 interesting, balanced and varied rosters than 30, half of which are bland (Bretonnians), don't do anything new (Khorne) or don't fit in the BB world at all (Apes).

As the biggest Ape homer/apologist/fan out there, I would ask if the BB world, as you see it, is completely limited to it's Warhammer roots? If so, that's fine, I was just curious. But we (all of us) make up the world of BB much more now than Warhammer or GW does (in my opinion) and I certainly favor attempts to grow and develop that world. I've had some very talented and passionate BB fans and coaches send me background stories and fluff about the Apes that connect them to the existing BB world. We have Lizards from the jungles of Lustria, who is to say there are not Apes there as well?

There are certainly Apes in the Southlands of the Warhammer world, the Beastmen army book mentions creatures like that who use tools and resemble primitive humans. It does not give details and is deliberately obtuse on whether they are intelligent apes, backward hairy humans or chaotic beastmen who are part ape rather than part goat.

You mentioned Lizards in Lustria, but the important factor is that it is Lizardmen who play bloodbowl. If it's just gorillas, chimps etc like we have in our world then I don't see it making any sense them playing bloodbowl. Also their hands and feet are not dexterous enough to warrant the extra arms skill. 2 human hands are better than 4 ape "hands", in particular as 2 of those are needed to walk on/jump up when picking up/catching the ball.

Now if they are Ape-men with feet as dexterous as human hands then I can see it working. Either magically enhanced planet of the apes style creatures or the aforementioned chaotic apemen (maybe with mutation access on doubles).

I actually like the roster itself and it does something Khorne and Bretonnians fails to do by being interesting and unique.

[Chris]

I would prefer to see some rules mods first (like the right stuff cancelling tackle when blocking).

Then the roster 'fixes' (Humans etc.).

Then new teams...

[harvestmouse]

That's kind of a good point. I think the Khorne roster suffered because of CPOMB combos, and not wishing to get negative criticism for bringing in another roster with that access.

Another problem is TV in the perpetual environment, in fact for me this is the major problem. However TV works extremely well for resurrection, which is makes up most NAF competitions.

[SunDevil]

That's true, I'd much rather have 18 interesting, balanced and varied rosters than 30, half of which are bland (Bretonnians), don't do anything new (Khorne) or don't fit in the BB world at all (Apes).

As the biggest Ape homer/apologist/fan out there, I would ask if the BB world, as you see it, is completely limited to it's Warhammer roots? If so, that's fine, I was just curious. But we (all of us) make up the world of BB much more now than Warhammer or GW does (in my opinion) and I certainly favor attempts to grow and develop that world. I've had some very talented and passionate BB fans and coaches send me background stories and fluff about the Apes that connect them to the existing BB world. We have Lizards from the jungles of Lustria, who is to say there are not Apes there as well?

There are certainly Apes in the Southlands of the Warhammer world, the Beastmen army book mentions creatures like that who use tools and resemble primitive humans. It does not give details and is deliberately obtuse on whether they are intelligent apes, backward hairy humans or chaotic beastmen who are part ape rather than part goat.

You mentioned Lizards in Lustria, but the important factor is that it is Lizardmen who play bloodbowl. If it's just gorillas, chimps etc like we have in our world then I don't see it making any sense them playing bloodbowl. Also their hands and feet are not dexterous enough to warrant the extra arms skill. 2 human hands are better than 4 ape "hands", in particular as 2 of those are needed to walk on/jump up when picking up/catching the ball.

Now if they are Ape-men with feet as dexterous as human hands then I can see it working. Either magically enhanced planet of the apes style creatures or the aforementioned chaotic apemen (maybe with mutation access on doubles).

I actually like the roster itself and it does something Khorne and Bretonnians fails to do by being interesting and unique.

Thank you for your fair and informative response! (And kind words about the Ape roster! )

I have been coming around to this idea more and more, which is one reason why we renamed the race 'Simyin' to give them more of an animal/human hybrid feel like Slann and Skaven and Lizardmen. It is no secret that I very much want the Simyin to FIT into Blood Bowl (both the game and the world) and not be some shoe-horned-in vanity project or, as you mentioned, a boring, pointless doppleganger team. I very much like the Southlands information you shared (thanks again!) and how it could be expanded to provide the Simyin with their backstory.

Of your options, I think I like magically-enhanced apes the best.

I also like 'Southlands' as a potential location for a future Simyin league team. The Southlands Silverbacks maybe...

[Blammaham]

Another problem is TV in the perpetual environment, in fact for me this is the major problem. However TV works extremely well for resurrection, which is makes up most NAF competitions.

TV has been working very very well in a perpetual environment for Thunderbowl. We've been playing LRB 5 and 6 by the book for as long as they have been around and we haven't seen any issues with the TV system working in our environment with the inducement system introduced in LRB6 only made it stronger IMO. Maybe everyone hasn't seen this but that is our experience. S.

[Chris]

There are problems - perpetual TV makes weak teams like humans worse. Depending on where you set the cap you see a shuffling at the top - Undead lose out at the top unlike their excellent low TV performance, Chaos/Nurgle really love 2000+ tv games, etc.

I do wonder how the bank would have shook things up at the top. I suspect it would be a boost for teams with good linemen (i.e. elves), or teams that skill quickly (i.e. elves) as skilling up models like black orcs is a knightmare at high TV, especially while some elves run rings round you.

[Blammaham]

We have set the SE at TV 176, and we have some excellent human teams, They have been competitive for a number of seasons placing high in the regular season and winning the league at least one time that I can remember off the top of my head. Of course teams that start with few skills like higher TV games but I think it would be untrue to say they have dominated at higher TV levels. It goes without saying that the tier 3 teams struggle, but that is to be expected.

Perhaps playing a set schedule has helped as teams can't dodge the tough match ups. Necro's and UD have both been great at higher TV too winning the league championship as well. IMO any new rosters have to be developed for competition in a league setting, making rosters for tournament play is folly. S.

[harvestmouse]

Well TV works 'a bit' better for league as teams are not matched by TV. The real problem is teams that are matched by TV. i.e. a perpetual open environment. However I'd be surprised if there were no artificial management tactics in a long running league.

I will concede though that TV can work in such an environment, especially table top where being a dick will get your nose broken or kicked out of the group. Online noses are unfortunately quite safe though.

[Darkson]

TV, and Blood Bowl rules in general, were designed with table top in mind, not online play.
If there are issues in the online environments then it is up to them to use the "commissioner's word is law" rule to make fixes for that environment. If they can't (Cyanide)/won't (Fumbbl) that's not a problem with the rules that's a problem with the environment.

[harvestmouse]

The online environment is different in a lot of aspects. As an example IP is rather moot for online and it would be pretty anal to code it.

Pre game sequence also needs special consideration. 'misclicks' are another issue.

However, I feel any perpetual League would benefit from not using TV...............or not using TV just on it's own.

I guess though the question is 'How important is online Blood Bowl, to Blood Bowl'? I'm thinking pretty important in this day and age and that team value calculating for match making needs different set of criteria for the 2 formats (resurrection/perpetual).

I think this would benefit TT perpetual leagues as well, as they could pick/choose or even use a hybrid system.

As an example for perpetual open environment, I feel ff should be used in someway of match making/handicapping.

For league formats it could be easier. Start of the season handicapping is based off of ff. After this on a placing system. 50k for every position higher than you. -50k for every position lower than you. With formats like this, artificial management only benefits winnings.

[dode74]

VoodooMike came up with a much better way of assessing TV, called TVPlus (or TV++). It basically modifies your TV based on your record and makes for more even matchups. You can read more about it here: https://voodoomath.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... y-numbers/

[harvestmouse]

I disagree that it's better, however I'm terrified discussing it further will bring him to this thread.

Edit: Actually I'm not sure about that.....it's certainly better than TV, and I like it now reading it than I did when it was proposed.

[Chris]

We have set the SE at TV 176, and we have some excellent human teams, They have been competitive for a number of seasons placing high in the regular season and winning the league at least one time that I can remember off the top of my head. Of course teams that start with few skills like higher TV games but I think it would be untrue to say they have dominated at higher TV levels.

I would have said from experience the opposite - teams with better starting stats do better at high TV than teams with more skills (and average stats). Basic reason is a better stat + skill is both more TV efficient and more common than skill + stat. I think wood elves are the major exception as they pretty much have both.

When you say 176 - is that a hard cap on T, or the point where winnings turn negative? And do you use the bank rules?

[Blammaham]

We have set the SE at TV 176, and we have some excellent human teams, They have been competitive for a number of seasons placing high in the regular season and winning the league at least one time that I can remember off the top of my head. Of course teams that start with few skills like higher TV games but I think it would be untrue to say they have dominated at higher TV levels.

I would have said from experience the opposite - teams with better starting stats do better at high TV than teams with more skills (and average stats). Basic reason is a better stat + skill is both more TV efficient and more common than skill + stat. I think wood elves are the major exception as they pretty much have both.

When you say 176 - is that a hard cap on T, or the point where winnings turn negative? And do you use the bank rules?

The reason I've found Chaos and Nurgle to do better at high TV is because they have had a chance to build up the skills they need to deal with the dark and wood elves of the world though both those teams also do well at high TV because they have had a chance to build up a bench to help with player attrition and skills like dodge and side step to save themselves.

The TV 176 refers to the point which spiralling expenses kick in to chip away at teams ability to make money.

I'm perfectly willing to concede the TV isn't a great system for open leagues but I get very little out of open league play myself and find the fruit fly effect really comes into play. Rare is the open league that is truly perpetual in my experience. It seems most die a quick death once a few teams get out in front. I can see that a different league management system would be needed for an open system. In the set schedule system that we employ in Thunderbowl, the TV and inducement system have worked very well ever since the introduction of LRB 4, though Thunderbowl was around much longer than that so we have seen the growth and stability created with the current TV system from the chaos that was preLRB 3. S.

[Chris]

For low TV differences some teams do benefit more than others. I have seen Elves not take a journeyman to get a wizard for example for a big match. But yes, no system would be perfect - do you use cards?