What would you change about the Humans?

[soranos]

First off, this is not meant as a bashing off the BBRC, who did a fine job all arround, but if there was one thing I was bummed with a littlle bit, it is that no changes were made on the Humans team. Now, I don't want this thread to turn into one off those were everybody boasts how great they can play with humans. Yes, there are still a competent team that can beat anybody. But still, in my understanding Humans should be one of the absolute top races...but at high TV they are clearly not (I think most of us can agree on that) and especially struggle against the extreme basher teams.

So I was thinking about possibilities that could be done to improve their rosters. Each point is a seperate suggestion, but some can be combined.

Small changes:

1. Make the Blitzers 80k: Blitzers are the best Human players (imo), and yes if you go from the Human lineman and build them up, they come out at 90k. But are the 90k still a fair price when Ork Blitzers cost 80k, Wardancers 120k, DE/HE Blitzers 100k, and so on? For almost every other race the Blitzers are actually "cheap" when you come to think about their impact on the game. So this is really an easy tweak, that could go quite a long way as humans save 40k in TV and should have less cash issues.

2. Let the Catchers start with Diving Catch: When the changes were made on DIving Catch and turned the skill form probably the worst to at least a respectable one, the almost unanimous choir was, that this skill was made for Human catchers...still it hardly gets picked, because they are still too many skills that seem to be more important. While being primarily a running team this would give the Humans iffy passing game, quite a boost.

Big changes:

1. Give the catchers ST3: Now these changes are more for fun, because I know this will never really be considered. When I think about the weaknesses of the Human team, I always think about the catchers, who have amongst positionals one of the weaker stat lines in the game. Once again they seem overpriced just like the Blitzers and really in general only get burn, because you have no choice but to play them. Yes, they can be decent, but that should not be peak for a important positional player. But if you want to turn Humans into an absolute Top Team you turn them into the human version of HE catchers with ST3 and raise their costs to 90k.

2. AV8 on the catchers: A smaller more realistic approach to improve the catchers and probably not with that much of an impact. But still an stat change and therefore an improvement. MA9 would be nicer, but the (unjustified) knock-down on the WE catcher made clear that only GR are allowed to have MA9. This way the otherwise poor Human catchers could at least claim to be the "toughest" catchers and it would give the team a small boost.

3. Give the Blitzers A access: Now this will probably be the most controversal suggestion, since there does not seem to be gorounded in the fluff of the game, as Blitzers are simply considered to be the brutes and best athlets of the Human team, but no "finesse" guys. Furthermore the Vamps are the only GAS players in the game. I think this would give the Humans are great opportunity to make the most out of their 4-blitzers arsenal, give them better survival options through blodge and should give the team a big boost.

So your thoughts...

[apricotsoup]

I'm of the mind to making catchers str3. They're just about the weakest around with various elves/amazons, etc. coming out ahead of them.

That said I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before :E

[nazgob]

I'm not really sure that they need a huge boost. Ag access on the blitzers seems wrong to me, but I do quite lik reducing their cost to 80k.

That would be a nice little boost, making it easier to form a full starting team.

[Joemanji]

Ooh, ooh! Me, me! *waves hand in air*

1) Blitzers 80K for the reasons listed too many times.

2) Catchers 60K. Just compare them to a Gutter Runner or High Elf Catcher so see what appauling value for money these guys are. I like them, they are useful on the pitch - just waaaay overpriced. Compare them to a Skink for example, who many would argue is actually better but costs 10K less! I don't mind the alternative suggestion of adding Diving Catch, however it doesn't work on handoffs and Humans really shouldn't be passing that often, so I think that it would be a marginal change.

The combined reduction in cost of these two players would improve the Human team in a very characterful way IMO. The key assets of humans in fluff terms are numbers and organisation. Keeping TV down and allowing them to replace casualties more rapidly feeds into this.

[inkpwn]

Ooh, ooh! Me, me! *waves hand in air*

1) Blitzers 80K for the reasons listed too many times.

2) Catchers 60K. Just compare them to a Gutter Runner or High Elf Catcher so see what appauling value for money these guys are. I like them, they are useful on the pitch - just waaaay overpriced. Compare them to a Skink for example, who many would argue is actually better but costs 10K less! I don't mind the alternative suggestion of adding Diving Catch, however it doesn't work on handoffs and Humans really shouldn't be passing that often, so I think that it would be a marginal change.

The combined reduction in cost of these two players would improve the Human team in a very characterful way IMO. The key assets of humans in fluff terms are numbers and organisation. Keeping TV down and allowing them to replace casualties more rapidly feeds into this.

+1


Nazgob can we house rules this plz

[Joemanji]

To expand upon the point about Catchers ... they are paying a lot for the Catch skill. But a good coach will use Catch skill once or twice per game if at all. Not per player - over the entire team. Sure, you have the option to use it. But GRs lose Catch and gain +1MA and +1AG for 10K, both of which can be used every single turn. Likewise Stunty or +1ST & +1AG on the HE Catcher. This is my problem with giving Human Catchers Diving Catch - it makes them better at a suboptimal play. If Humans start playing like Pro Elves then (over the long term) they have already lost.

[GalakStarscraper]

This is my problem with giving Human Catchers Diving Catch - it makes them better at a suboptimal play.

Plus it really cuts into a unique feature of the Slann.

If we had another cycle. I do have 4 things on my list that I'd consider at this time (which isn't going to happen .... but its my list).

1) I'd be willing to try Blitzers at 80k and Catchers at AV 8 to see if it pulls the team overall between 50% and 55% league win rate. I like this a lot more than ST 3 Catchers.

2) Sneaky Git does what it does AND acts like Guard for fouling.

3) Fouler can add +1 to the AV roll for a foul if he is not in an opposing tackle zone.

4) Replacing Petty Cash with the Bank now that we have evidence that could have been shown to JJ of the major issues in large scale leagues with Petty Cash.

That's my full list. I'm pretty happy that a year later I only have 4 items.

Tom

[Ulthuan_Express]

Overall I'm very happy with the Human team - they're perfectly balanced for running or passing and are not really tough and bashy, but not fragile and finessed, either.

If we had another cycle. I do have 4 things on my list that I'd consider at this time (which isn't going to happen .... but its my list).

1) I'd be willing to try Blitzers at 80k and Catchers at 60% to see if it pulls the team overall between 50% and 55% league win rate. I like this a lot more than ST 3 Catchers.

2) Sneaky Git does what it does AND acts like Guard for fouling.

3) Fouler can add +1 to the AV roll for a foul if he is not in an opposing tackle zone.

4) Replacing Petty Cash with the Bank now that we have evidence that could have been shown to JJ of the major issues in large scale leagues with Petty Cash.

That's my full list. I'm pretty happy that a year later I only have 4 items.

Tom

I'd definitely like 80k Blitzers - the comparison between Orc/Human Lineman (same price for one less/one more MA/AV) somehow becomes 10k more when you've got ST access for Blitzers. Catchers I've been fairly happy with anyway, and they feel balanced to me.

Your fouling ideas definitely make sense (I wondered why fouling didn't have its own version of Guard), though a Dirty Player being able to get +2 for the foul on his own? Ouch.

[mubo]

80k/60k seems ok to me. However, I'd rather make the players better than cheaper, human blitzers should be among the best players in the game. I don't mind AG access on blitzers. Would lead to lots of blodging SS guards which might be fun (and a biggish boost).

The thing I'd really like is to allow catchers to receive hand offs/passes on 2s. This comes back to the whole cool vs agile discussion a while back. I don't think it's inconsistent to allow some players to be average at dodging, but great at ball handling. This is already done with passing with accurate + strong arm, and could be done for catching with a new skill (e.g. safe hands +1 to catch/int rolls (G access)) that could be given to catchers off the bat. I know this treads on DC and extra arms, but I think it would be a great help to humans. It could even replace extra arms directly, but rename it and make it a general skill. Then they'd be worth 70k.

[Joemanji]

A mention for Agile/Cool ... this is becoming my favourite thread in a long time!

In practice I doubt new skills would be on the agenda even in a theoretical further cycle of the LRB. However, I like your reasoning in making Humans a true running team, able to switch the ball over in contact without necessarily having a viable long passing game.

[burgun824]

Humans are meant to be the dead center average team, therefore I don't think stat/skill changes are in the picture (nor should they be). I could possibly see the argument for making catchers ST3, but I think just making them cheaper would work just as good. This couples with the only problem I've had in league play with my humans and that is being able to afford them. They can be too exspensive to replace if spiralling exspenses start piling up and you take a couple of bad winnings in a row.

So simply put, I am on board with keeping humans exactly the way they are except reducing the cost of blitzers and catchers.

+1 80k blitzers/60k catchers

Now slightly off topic...

To expand upon the point about Catchers ... they are paying a lot for the Catch skill. But a good coach will use Catch skill once or twice per game if at all.

I agree with this. I hardly ever use my catchers as deep field threat on offense unless I can roll a +MA on them early in their life. Then give them Sprint and Sure Feet and you've got yourself a possible 1 turn score threat.

Having said that though, I typically use my catchers as ball strikers and try to skill at least two of them along the Block - Dauntless - Strip Ball - Tackle path. I find them to be much more effective in this roll then trying to use them as an actual reciever.

[txapo]

I basically would not change them much, but yes I would create a forth human team:


guess which one???

[burgun824]

I basically would not change them much, but yes I would create a forth human team:


guess which one???

Don't you dare...

[Joemanji]

This topic is interesting, don't derail it please.

This couples with the only problem I've had in league play with my humans and that is being able to afford them. They can be too exspensive to replace if spiralling exspenses start piling up and you take a couple of bad winnings in a row.

This is also my experience. Once TV gets higher Humans become rubbish and can't afford to replace dead players (Blitzers in particular). The former I can deal with (not every team is meant to be equal), but the latter just drains the fun out of running them.

[mubo]

A mention for Agile/Cool ... this is becoming my favourite thread in a long time!

I knew you'd like that!
The thing is for me, when you come under pressure and think if `I can hand off to that catcher he'll be safe'. At 1/9 that's too risky, I think making this 1/36 would add a lot to their game.

I'm not sure that 80k would make that much difference to long term prospects. They are AV8, and tend to get left in TZs. Elves can dodge out and orcs are AV9. They seem to die far more often than other players. Might check fumbbl stats on this...