You'll probably hate this, but ............

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 3:47 pm

Packmaster is a good idea... even if I think a player on a pitch which isn't a big guy, and cost its price is not a good deal... I should understand why you do it, in order to make it balanced.

Another point is the fact it's used instead of a wizard, and could play on the pitch...

But 2 ideas are really nice to me, and can't be made if you simply replace the wizard by your packmaster (ie without possibility to get on the pitch)

the idea of limiting its influence to 7 squares is great... It's hard to make it if the player isn't on the pitch.

the idea that effect could be stopped (KO, injury) is great...

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 4:47 pm

What's about a teacher for ogres ?

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 11:49 pm

That could remove bonehead, I suppose ?

Seriously, I find the idea of a packmaster great, because it's an unit of WHB world...

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 3:13 pm

Ok if you must freeboot him !

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 4:58 pm

--flame on--

Reality Check.

Sure the packmaster is nice flavour but, considering the cost (either as a freebooter or as a member of permanent staff) the only teams that would get them would be teams that are already fairly well developed and have a nice full roster. Such teams will generally also have Rat Ogres who have got 16 odd star player points and have, at the very least, block and pro.

6 5 3 8 Block, Pro, Prehensile Tail, Mighty Blow (and no WA)

Think about that for a minute.

Yes, Rat Ogres are very difficult to play well; but with some sound tactics and, most importantly, with block skill, they are extremely useful players.

And for all those who say you can't develop them quickly - you set them up to hit squishy recievers in the backfield or you charge them downfield and use them as a second string reciever (yes, that's right, score with Rat Ogres) and they get block quickly enough.

I don't want to sound patronising but I'm of the opinion that if a negative skill makes a player hard to coach, then you improve your game to deal with the negative skill, you don't make up rules to negate it.

--flame off--

Marcus

longfang · Post by **longfang** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 5:09 pm

Yep, feet firmly on the ground, agree with ya there Marcus.

Anthony_TBBF · Post by **Anthony_TBBF** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 5:11 pm

I agree, Big Guy backfielders rock IMO. I started an Chaos Dwarf team last night and stuck a Mino in the backfield. Final score: 2-0 for me

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 7:30 pm

Like i said you'll probably hate this!

Lets revisit the idea.

Packmaster as originally envisaged is not there to permanantly control Wild Animal. Its an expensive addition that probably few people would take. His presence would only control Wild Animal if the Packmaster is actually present on the pitch within 7 squares. Leaving your expensive lineman AV7 an open target for any self respecting coach. It just opens up another avenue of options.

I agree without a shadow of a doubt that a fully developed Skaven Team will have 1 Rat Ogre with Block, Pro, Break Tackle and a whole host of diverse skills which you can develop any way you choose. If thats the case then why should you spend 150k on him, i doubt if i would but at least i'd have the option.

However i am always looking for something different rather than the same old thing time in time out. Otherwise the game would soon become sometimes a little too predictable. House rules, Rule changes and new rules only happen from an initial idea. which has to start somewhere. Sometimes their crud and sometimes they make you sit up and think.

I am not saying Packmaster is a great idea or not. To be honest its something that got dreamed up on the spur of the moment.

Its great that on this forum that we have such a wide diversity of characters and excellently knowledgable BloodBowl players to be able to add such constructive critisism. I for one find the feedback on this forum not only invaluable but greatly entertaining.

Like i said you'll probably hate this, but i for one am always ready to listen to new ideas good or bad and i hope we get plenty more of them. In that way we get the best of everything that this great game has to offer.

Thanks for you comments. Most appreciated

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 5:22 pm

the master must be on his feet i suppose to control the WA.

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 12:50 am

McDeth: a lot of discussions here supposed the best place for a rat-ogre would be as defender, not on the offensive line... I'm not sure, but I remember I've seen it somewhere.

It's obvious you won't stay with your lineman around the central circle... But let's imagine you RO stay around 6 squares behind the offensive line... your packmaster should be behind, and won't be blocked. But as I said before, I really like the idea of a packmaster... Maybe we have to find a "con" for it, wheras the pro is great (yes Marcus, and Acerak, I know you don't like this way of making balance, but...)... I don't know enough Packmaster in WHB World, but could we imagine a "penalty roll" due to the fact it has a big influence? Something like magic, you see ... Don't know if it sounds correct. And you could only have it by freebooting (75k po).

What about this ?

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 1:53 pm

a penalty roll like a secret Weapon so, 10+ ?

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 3:25 pm

I see the Packmaster as in no need of a penalty roll. Offensively the only help he can really give physically is to stay out of the way of the opposition to enable control to be kept, so in effect for offensive drives your a man down. For as soon as the Wild Animal moves out of the sphere of influence the Wild Animal applies again. Likewise in defense there's no way you'd set this guy up in LOS as as soon as he'son the floor then Your rat Ogre is Wild again. Don't forget he doesn't have to be stunned. If the Packmaster starts the turn prone, the Wild Animal must make his turn first, before even allowing the packmaster to stand up.
The massive drawback here, is if you've sent your Rat Ogre marauding into enemy territory the Packmaster can't be far behind unless you want the Wild Animal skill to apply. At this point the packmaster will be open to attack, and the rat Ogre possibly drawn into some Turnover creating blocks. The rule probably also needs to be extended so that if the packmaster ever became ball carrier then again the influence ids lost as he's concentrating ton what he's doing with the ball

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 6:09 pm

May be the master shoudnt move when he control the WA because of the concentration. That is a serious Drawback.
So you must be carefull to let your WE in the 7 squares

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 6:44 pm

good fluff, bad for the game...

the negative trait is there for a reason, and i've seen rat ogres played effectively with the trait, and devestatingly without it... point being, the rat ogre takes skill with WA, it doesn't without WA... the damn things are perfectly well enough balanced for my tastes... allowing WA to be taken off, even if the cause is on teh field, just screws up game balance...

use him as a safety and as a really scary receiver and you'll be all right, use him as a lineman, you get what you deserve... there's more skill in learning to play the game despite the rules (which are there for a reason) than in scheming up ways around them altogether...

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 6:47 pm

I can't help but notice all your careful planning regarding how to play the packmaster, how to keep him out of trouble, how to ensure the ratogre doesn't leave his sphere of influence etc sounds suspiciously like the trouble you need to go to to ensure a ratogre isn't swamped by the opposition under the normal rules.

I generally run a linerat in support of my ratogre, to ensure there are tacklezones between him and the opposition and to cancel out assists against the RO in case someone gets a block at him.

Why not just paint up a WH packmaster model and make him part of your team as a linerat. It's great flavour, would win you style points in a tournament, and might make people think twice about ganging up on your ratogre if they know his mate is near.

Hell, you could even make him a dirty player so he can clean up after the ratogre's done his blocking.

With all the extra ifs, buts and whyfores you need to add to "balance" the packmaster you are simply shifting the need for careful play from the ratogre to the packmaster. Seems like an unnecessary complication to me.

But hell, bring along a packmaster themed linerat and you'll get style marks from me.

Marcus