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 Post subject: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:27 pm 
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I don't like tackle as is.

It is the only skill in the game that relies on the opposing player having it's "counter skill" of Dodge. If they don't have Dodge, Tackle has no use.

Now, if you think Tackle is just fine as it is because of all the Dogdey McDodgersons out there, that's just fine and dandy. Just keep in mind that that I don't and that's not what this thread is about, I am proposing a change to the tackle rule to give it a use outside of countering Dodge.

Tackle: "Opposing players who are standing in any of this player’s tackle zones are not allowed to use their Dodge skill if they attempt to dodge out of any of the player’s tackle zones, nor may they use their Dodge skill if the player throws a block at them and uses the Tackle skill. In addition, if the defender does not have Dodge, and the result of the block is "Defender Stumbles", the attacking player may choose to have their opponent knocked down in the square where they were standing, rather than being pushed and then falling over."

So it's basically an optional positioning change after the block, and it could be used to negate Fend and SideStep, but only if the "Defender Stumbles" result is rolled. This makes it sort of like an offensive Stand Firm, but only on one die result.

This would give the skill some use if the opposing player doesn't have Dodge, but isn't overwhelmingly strong, and the secondary benefit does not and would not apply if it's being used to negate Dodge.

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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:30 am 
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You play Dwarfs....don't you!


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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:34 am 
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Lordhelmawr wrote:
It is the only skill in the game that relies on the opposing player having it's "counter skill" of Dodge. If they don't have Dodge, Tackle has no use.

So what? It's one of the things you consider when you pick a skill.


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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:56 am 
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If you want to house rule it, go ahead.
Wouldn't be a house rule I'd want to use though.

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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:54 am 
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Lordhelmawr wrote:
It is the only skill in the game that relies on the opposing player having it's "counter skill" of Dodge. If they don't have Dodge, Tackle has no use.


Wrong. If you don't have AV 8 or more Claw has no use. :wink:

Maybe we should look into improving Claw as well..... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:38 am 
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Rolex wrote:
Lordhelmawr wrote:
It is the only skill in the game that relies on the opposing player having it's "counter skill" of Dodge. If they don't have Dodge, Tackle has no use.


Wrong. If you don't have AV 8 or more Claw has no use. :wink:

Maybe we should look into improving Claw as well..... :lol:


Or Strip Ball when the ball handlers have Sure Hands. Skills interactions are worth considering when picking a skill, so maybe try that first and then consider house rules. Extra rules for no reason are great fun as long as you never expect anyone to use them.


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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:19 pm 
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harvestmouse wrote:
You play Dwarfs....don't you!


No, but I do own a Chaos Dwarf team. :(

Does that mean I'm disqualified from talking about this skill?

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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:20 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
If you want to house rule it, go ahead.
Wouldn't be a house rule I'd want to use though.


Thanks for your permission.

Curious about why you wouldn't want to try it? Just a general sense of "been there, done that, what do you know about rules changes"? Or is it that any change is bad?

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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:53 pm 
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Lordhelmawr wrote:
No, but I do own a Chaos Dwarf team. :(

Does that mean I'm disqualified from talking about this skill?

You, sir, are disqualified from talking.


;)


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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:29 am 
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Tackle is already one of the better skills in the game, it doesn't need a buff.
If people aren't taking Dodge in your league because a few players have taken (or have) Tackle then it's doing its job psychologically.

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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:50 am 
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Generally, when talking about house rules, it's up to whoever is suggesting a change to prove (first) that there's a real problem, and (second) that the problem will be fixed by the proposed house rule. (And more generally, that the game will be improved in doing so).

Both Dodge and Tackle are two of the most popular skills taken in every league I've been in. (I don't have numbers to back it up; I could go through my leagues by hand and count which skills are taken most often, but that's a lot of work, and which ought to be done by whoever's trying to prove that Tackle is so unpopular and weak that it needs a house rule buff).

So I don't see a problem which needs fixing. And to others who think Tackle is already a strong skill, your suggestion kind of comes across as "Butthurt Chaos Dwarf player lost to a team without much Dodge, needs something to complain about". This may or may not be your situation, but it's why you'll get snarky replies until you first show that there's a real problem with Tackle.

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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 3:54 pm 
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Lordhelmawr wrote:
Darkson wrote:
If you want to house rule it, go ahead.
Wouldn't be a house rule I'd want to use though.


Thanks for your permission.

Curious about why you wouldn't want to try it? Just a general sense of "been there, done that, what do you know about rules changes"? Or is it that any change is bad?


Change definitely isn't bad. Even talking about changes is good. However you get to point (like Darkson) where you've played so many games that you know that some changes just simply would not work with or without play testing.

On a complexity level your ruling would cause too much confusion and as stated tackle is a skill that doesn't need a buff. I think Stand Firm dwarfs and your ruling would be demoralizing to play against.


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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Just in case you were wondering what other teams I have, I currently own;

Amazons
Chaos
Chaos Dwarves
Dark Elves
Dwarves (never played them yet)
Pro Elves
Humans
Lizardmen
Necromantic
Norse
Nurgle
Orc
Skaven
Undead

:puke:

harvestmouse wrote:
On a complexity level your ruling would cause too much confusion and as stated tackle is a skill that doesn't need a buff. I think Stand Firm dwarfs and your ruling would be demoralizing to play against.


It's too complex?

If the defender doesn't have dodge and the "Stumble" result is chosen, you can either push him as normal, or choose to have him fall over in the square that he's in.

I don't know how that could be any simpler.

I don't feel that I have to prove that tackle needs improving, I state right in the OP that this is merely my opinion.

My opinion after 13+ years of playing Blood Bowl myself, looking at the skill and saying, "Why doesn't this do anything on it's own? Why does it rely on the other player having a skill to function? What could it possibly do to be useful against a player without Dodge?"

I am proposing a change, if you feel no change is needed? Swell.

But if you were going to change tackle somehow, if you had no choice, would this be acceptable?

Would a 1/6 chance of having your position after being knocked down change be too powerful? I just can't see how, but OK, what would you propose instead?

And if you absolutely don't think it needs changing? Please leave this space blank.

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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:37 pm 
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Lordhelmawr wrote:

But if you were going to change tackle somehow, if you had no choice, would this be acceptable?


No, I think you're going the wrong way. If I HAD to change tackle (and only tackle) I would weaken it, not strengthen it. Not exactly sure how, but a tiny nerf against stunty teams might improve the game.


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 Post subject: Re: A change to Tackle
 Post Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:56 pm 
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Moraiwe wrote:
No, I think you're going the wrong way. If I HAD to change tackle (and only tackle) I would weaken it, not strengthen it. Not exactly sure how, but a tiny nerf against stunty teams might improve the game.


Like in the NTBB rules:
Quote:
5. Right Stuff (Extraordinary): [Added to skill text]: Additionally, the player is not easily tackled. Any opponent blocking (or Blitzing) this player is not allowed to use Tackle skill to affect the resulting block dice.


Technically that's a buff to Right Stuff, not a nerf to Tackle. But six of one, half dozen of the other. They still can't use the dodge reroll when dodging away from Tacklers. So a slight buff to certain stunty teams.

I'm pretty sure NTBB teams still commonly take Tackle, even when it's slightly nerfed against Stunties with Right Stuff. Maybe Plasmoid has numbers to back that up. If so, it's a sign that Tackle is already considered a popular and powerful skill even without any kind of buff.

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