Garion's CRP 2nd Edition WIP

[garion]

- Wizard does NOT need a further buff. It needs to get toned down, if anything. It also helps elves the most, so any buff to it buffs elves, which is... yeah.
Again I dont think you understand, the wizard has received a Nerf not a buff?, the optional extra part is just a fun nod back to 2nd edition, only the first part is for normal leagues?

- Amazon Catchers got nerfed? Wow, no point to ever pick them. And you got rid of their blitzers? Well, this team really sucks, and is even more boring now. disagree, they get extra movement, and a big guy wuth Claw, and extra Av on their blitzers. The team would fair alot better against Dwarves and CDs and a little worse against everyone else which is entirley the point, also not so mind numbingly dull anymore

- No change to Chaos at all, even with the totally random mutations? So the only reliable plan for them now is the Block/Guard route, and Orcs are better at that. no they can still take mutations on normal rolls and the mutations are almost all worth having and most received a buff, think i need a buff to very long legs mind thats too week atm, also the odds of getting Claw or RSC are 1 in 6 so still better chances of getting them than a double on skill increase, which is what they used to need in lrb4 when the rules werent knacked up by giving everyone free choice to any skill., also they have a higher St than orcs on average as well/color]

- A buff to the chaos dwarf big guy option? They don't need a buff. they lose free pikcs to mutations and they have also lost thick skull, againCDS used to have Trolls in lrb4 and they were not too powerful then and they didnt have mutations either.

- Reducing Dwarf Tackle spam is the right idea, but not giving them anything new still makes them extremely limited in scope. And buffs elves. yeah still not sure about this either

- Khemri losing Decay and Blitz/Thro-Ras getting Thick Skull is exactly what the team needs.

- I find it hilarious that you nerf Norse by getting rid of their Thrower, but Orcs still get to keep theirs. its not a nerf to norse the thrower is a compeltely pointless positional that mostly gets ingored these days, norse had too many positionals, also I am part of a league that trialed getting rid of the orc thrower, it made no difference, if anything it made them a little better in league play because blitzers just skilled up even faster, and the orc thrower is the weakest player on their roster, they dont need to lose one of their weaknesses.

- Oh, Ogre team Ogres going up to 8 max? That would make an enormous difference, but now they also kill EVERYTHING. Snot MA6 is a much better step. dont understand what you mean here? if you mean it is too good, i disagree, they would still completely suck, they couldnt have more than 6 in a starting roster anyway and that would only happen if they took 1 rr and only 5 snotlings which is a pretty week starting roster anyway

Thanks for the feedback, but I largely disagree with what you say, some of it is because you miss-read stuff mind, other stuff is just difference of opinion. Did you play LRB4?

[Juriel]

- Trait is a good idea for limiting access to certain powerful skills.. However, only PO/U&U counts as such from the current trait list. Diving Tackle only on doubles and at +30k price? That looks like something only someone who wants elves to have an even easier time would suggest. Diving tackle isnt a Trait? read it again!

Whoa, I did say I was reading this in order. I just saw D.... Tackle, and presumed it was one of the real skills. I like the idea, but only Piling On and U&U deserve to be there. And even then, I'd rather not have extra rules for stuff that could be handled by not making those two so bloody good.

- Don't like removing nega-traits. Those would make big guys totally too awesome. Disagree again, firstly its only on a double 6 so you have to pick between a double a St+ and a removal whihc is tough enough. Then you still cant remove loner, so they still can't re-roll anything with success

The choice between ST6 and reliability is not a hard choice, since BB is amout minimizing risks/unreliability.

- Okay, Up and Under makes this look like an elf buff rulesbook even more. Receiving team don't even get a chance to handle the ball on their turn? Wow... Words fail me. Again yes they do, you clearly havent read this properly? and there are two counters to it as well?

Up and under (General Trait)
This skill can only be used by players who are not on the LoS or in the wide-zones during a Kick-off. First place the ball, then determine where the ball is going to land, next resolve the Kick off Table, but the ball does not then land and “bounce” again. The ball is kicked so high that is does not come down prior to the receivers turn. The ball lands and “bounces” at the end of the receiving teams turn instead. This skill may be used in conjunction with Kick. If the initial scatter takes the ball off the pitch then the receiving coach may give it to a player as normal. If the ball lands at the end of the turn on the pitch then “bounces” off the side, the ball is thrown back into play by the crowd because the play has already started.

I have read this, and what it says, is that the ball does NOT come down until the receiving team has done all the moves they are going to make. This says 'elves, keep scoring'. If that's not what it's intended to do, then I don't know what it does, and it should be re-worded.

- Dirty Tackle is only an Agility skill? Too weak for people to ever pick it. No dirty tackle is an agility trait not skill, and its really not too weak, +1 to av and injury? it powerful, have had feedback saying the opposite, so I'm happy with it

No-one would pick it as a doubles and +30k price, when they need to already have A access naturally.

- Love Taunt's effect. But it's too weak to pick as a skill by itself, needs to be combined with some other skill.again had feedback saying its too strong, in a ruleset that is geared toward positional play and not the silly hyperbash/hyperball game that is played now this would be very effective when comined with skills like tentacles or diving tackle dirty tackle etc...

However, the game we play IS all about the hyperbash and hyperball, so this skill is just not as good as many others. Otherwise you'd see Fend being picked by every player, for the same reason, yet it is not. I love such skills, but not more than I love effectiveness.

Again, I dont think you understand the change to the ref rules.... its basically the same as LRB4 which was the far superior mechnism for fouling a ref etc...

I understand it adds more die-rolling, and penalizes the same side fouling more often. Which then again punishes stunty teams. I just don't see the benefit of it, compared to what we have in the current ruleset.

Holy crap, you buffed Wild Animal so it's plain better than Bonehead now? Like the basic idea, but this is too good. yeah Im still not sure about this, but again some people say, WOW you made him worse, others say Wow you made him far better??? So not sure?

There is nothing bad about this. It only comes up 1 time in 6, and then it may well end up being beneficial to you, whereas Bonehead losing all tackle zones on a 1 is ALWAYS negative for you. If the new WA roll was 3+, then I could see it being balanced, since they really would be wild much of the time.

[Juriel]

Thanks for the feedback, but I largely disagree with what you say, some of it is because you miss-read stuff mind, other stuff is just difference of opinion. Did you play LRB4?

Is this houserules FOR LRB4? I am approaching this from the viewpoint of the current edition, since I mostly avoided LRB4, with its hyper-bash focus.

[Juriel]

Again I dont think you understand, the wizard has received a Nerf not a buff?, the optional extra part is just a fun nod back to 2nd edition, only the first part is for normal leagues?

While the wizard lightning now works on average worse, you do also get the EXTRA option of Zap. This does weaken the lightning when used against elves, but elves don't need things made easier for them.

Amazon Catchers got nerfed? Wow, no point to ever pick them. And you got rid of their blitzers? Well, this team really sucks, and is even more boring now. disagree, they get extra movement, and a big guy wuth Claw, and extra Av on their blitzers. The team would fair alot better against Dwarves and CDs and a little worse against everyone else which is entirley the point, also not so mind numbingly dull anymore

Err, all of amazon team is listed as MA6, with the big guy at MA4. I'm just not seeing any extra options for them, since what they gain in big guy, they lose in blitzers.

its not a nerf to norse the thrower is a compeltely pointless positional that mostly gets ingored these days, norse had too many positionals, also I am part of a league that trialed getting rid of the orc thrower, it made no difference, if anything it made them a little better in league play because blitzers just skilled up even faster, and the orc thrower is the weakest player on their roster, they dont need to lose one of their weaknesses.

You do realize that extra option IS an extra option? Losing that option is a nerf, even if that option was rarely exercised. Now this sticks the Norse into only a running play, with no back-up option when they inevitably get stopped by a massed orc line, whereas orcs get a Thrower they really, really do not even need, but hey, free Sure Hands.

- Oh, Ogre team Ogres going up to 8 max? That would make an enormous difference, but now they also kill EVERYTHING. Snot MA6 is a much better step. dont understand what you mean here? if you mean it is too good, i disagree, they would still completely suck, they couldnt have more than 6 in a starting roster anyway and that would only happen if they took 1 rr and only 5 snotlings which is a pretty week starting roster anyway

I think it pushes them into the spot where the early Khemri were - cannot win a match, but will destroy any frailer team they come across, since it's all MB now. Would be interested in seeing it in action, and it's definitely not too powerful, but I don't think it's something that'd be too fun to play against. And not for challenge, but just because you know you'll lose players, even if things are generally pretty easy (thanks to lost ogre tackle zones).

[Chris]

Indeed in a fit of pure spite I am developing an Ogre team on cyanide featuring one ag 3 ogre as a vague attempt to win the game but otherwise piling on ogres are the order of the day. I hope to get the team to 6 skilled ogres and go trying to mess up those annoying high tv chaos and the like teams that delight in slaughtering my werewolves!

[burgun824]

Burgun did you get a chance to look through it all?

Yes I got through it once, still not in depth though. I've been slammed at work. Stupid Architecture...I don't know why I ever picked this profession.

[garion]

Sorry jurliel but LRB4 was not hyperbash at all. It was a far more conservative game than it has become, the fouling was more powerful yes which it should be - but the game was more about positional play and far far less about attrition. CRP has become heavily focused on attrition, at the expense of positional play much like older versions than LRB4 which had ridiculous bash rules like fang and the old Pilling On mummies that added the St to the roll etc... Yes there is still positional play, but hyperbash and hyperball tactics didnt exist till this edition (hyperbash did in older versions, but i didnt like it then either, the game was far too heavily slanted for bash, then the balance was good in lrb4, and its still quite good now, but pilling on is crazy good now in lrb4 it was RR av only, i have kept it the same because something is needed to replace ageing and the apoth now being useless goes someway in helping this but you need pilling on to cause some extra damage for this too). To me the exaggerated verions of bash and ball play are really really bads things that have taken alot the enjoyment out of the game because positioning just isnt as important anymore and luck on the pitch has become a bigger factor in game than I found it to be in lrb4.

LRB4 was the best ruleset by far in my opinion. Only two issues i had with it, were the handicap system which has now been sorted out and the lack of journeymen, those two inclusions were all that was needed to make that rule set perfect for me, but i also understand the need to get rid of ageing.

This ruleset I have written is an adition to CRP as you say but many of the things that return are skills or rules from LRB4 or even older than have been brought back because they were fun useful and sometimes because they were got rid of for stupid reasons like secret weapon rolls, which the BBRC wanted to keep but JJ wanted to get rid of because he thought there were too many rolls

on to these rules -

Wizard - is now worse over all, it used to benefit AG races far more than it did bash and this is a nerf for elves more so than any other race.

Amazons - no the catchers are Ma7, Claw is a big boon for them against bash teams in the long term as is av 8 blitzers, but the focus on amazons is now on the running passing game, Norse are bash, Humans are mixed and now amazons are passing specialists- they also arent so impossible to knock over as they are currently for starter teams which is why they were so dull to play with and against.

Ogres - even with that many ogres they still suck because snotlings are just so aweful, I used to play against Ogre teams in LRB4 who has 10 or 11 ogres, and guess what they were still rubbish then as well. It is just enough of a change to make them slightly competative again. Which at the moment they just are not at all. The thing you dont seem to be taking into account is for every ogre you have your TV increases a huge amount so you never get to have many skills on them.

... I like the idea, but only Piling On and U&U deserve to be there. And even then, I'd rather not have extra rules for stuff that could be handled by not making those two so bloody good.

Disagree, again you only see Up and Under from an elf point of view. Yes it gives them a nice boost at kick off, but it isnt as big as you seem to think. as said in the document, you can see where the ball is going to come down, so you can position a player under it to catch it at the end of your turn still and cage around it too. Also kick off return counters it as does bad kick on the kick off table. Also you are fogetting that bash teams can really take advtange of this, it will stop one turn touch downs unless elves have kick off return, and even then make it a hell of a lot harder. It will also make scoring two turn touchdowns harder too. The skill is a boost for all teams, also none of those skills are new, they are skills that were taken out after second edition, to make the game less complicated, taunt and soft lande i think are the only new ones i added.

Dirty Tackle - I would pick dirty tackle, the threat of it is great, I would have it on a blodge SS Diving Tackle player - also it is an existing skill again that was removed between 2nd ed and 3rd ed to make the rules less complex.

Wild Animal. it may well be benficial yes, but it could also kill one of your own players, most people seem to think it is worse.

Finally the benfit to the way fouling works is it makes it tactical and adds another dimension to the game one that adds to the positional play and stops elves using wrestle en masse etc.. it was taken away between lrb4 and CRP, and fouling is now really boring and useless. It means you now have to pick your time to foul better, also there is higher risk higher reward possbilities, and if the eye is on your opopnent you have les chance of getttign sent off but at the risk of taking the eye off them, at the moment all fouling does is reward teams that have a big man advtange already. Which it should never do and the new rules for fouling are a big boost to stunty teams.

[Wylder]

I wish you would stop insisting on calling your weird set of house rules "CRP2".

It's horribly misleading.

[Juriel]

I wish you would stop insisting on calling your weird set of house rules "CRP2".

It's horribly misleading.

I'm with this sentiment.

[garion]

Its called CRP 2nd edition. There is a reason for that too alot of the skills etc.... are brought back from second edition, random mutations etc....

edit: also just checked the document, and there are a couple of mistakes with the zon one, catrchers are meant to be st3 ma7, that was a typo thanks for pointing that out.

[Juriel]

now amazons are passing specialists

I think I prefer the Hail Mary + Diving Catch approach for that idea, since otherwise you just run into 'well, elves do that better, and half of them ARE av8, to boot'.

Ogres - even with that many ogres they still suck because snotlings are just so aweful

Oh, of course they suck. I know this, I have played Ogres. Snotling speed and ST are the major reason for it. Boosting them to MA6 is the right step, but increasing possible ogre amounts doesn't really change them much, just makes them more lopsided IF one goes for all of those. I think I'd like to see where they place if you just replace snots with goblins.

again you only see Up and Under from an elf point of view. Yes it gives them a nice boost at kick off, but it isnt as big as you seem to think. as said in the document, you can see where the ball is going to come down, so you can position a player under it to catch it at the end of your turn still and cage around it too.

You know what that says to me, when I'm coaching an elf team? That says they are going to fail the 5+ catch 66% of the time, and then I have good odds the ball will bounce either out of their cage, or be in a spot where I can blitz-push one of their caging players onto it, to hopefully scatter it out of the cage again. Because elf pick-ups in one tackle zone (or even two) are not that hard to do. Then the elves score, and then they get to kick and do the same thing all over again. Elf scores every other turn, that's what this skill means.

Wild Animal. it may well be benficial yes, but it could also kill one of your own players, most people seem to think it is worse.

Don't put your own people in direct lines from the WA, and there is NO downside. Hell, even if it's in the middle of your own peeps during a scrum, there's still a 50/50 chance it'll end up going the opponent's way, especially if you act with other players first, positioning them away, and pushing opponents into those lines. It's a major buff to WAs.

all fouling does is reward teams that have a big man advtange already.

I agree with this sentiment. I just don't like extra rolling.

[garion]

Okay, sorted out the 3 mistakes in there, and the dwarf pricing has been fixed as well.

Zons - yup elves do that better in theory, but with the combination of skills zons start with they actually do it just as well 2+ pass and 2+ catch. they are also more reliable at dodging in a starter team, they live longer to start with because of the dodge en masse. So they are still a better starter race than most elf teams, and in small leagues (which most people seem to play in) this roster is still a front loaded one, like Undead, Norse, Orcs, Humans. The changes are just to make them a more interesting team to play with and against and to make them a team that requires some thought and positional play, which their current CRP roster does not, at the moment in CRP and the previous editions Zons are one dimensional, and required little to no thought to use, unless you are playing dwarves or CDs in which case they become stupidly hard to use. This roster also helps out in that respect making thoe Dwarf and CD vs zons games a little more even, although still slightly slanted in dwarf favour. The lack of block on the blitzers and loss of two blitzers makes zons a little easier to play against for all the other races which is the intention. Finally the big guy buff, extra av buff and higher Ma buff means they should be a little more competative at a higher TV, though still not a top tier team at higher tv.

Ogres - Yeah I don't like the snotlings at all either, and wouldn't mind just bringing the Goblins back like in lrb4, (in LRB4 they could have 12 ogres and goblins instead of snotlings, and they still werent very good lol) however there was a bit of opposition from goblin coaches that said this would stop people taking Goblins because ogres would just be a better veriosn of the goblin team. I actually disagree with this, I think goblins would still stand on their own two feet because of their secret weapons and the return of the secret weapon roll, which should never have been removed. But I dunno, I was trying to wrok with the current rosters making as few changes to them as possible, but your right, St1 snotlings is the problem.

Up and Under - first of all it's a trait, so requires doubles and a 30Tv increase and means you need to ignore guard or Mighty Blow etc... and as said it has two counters, bad kick and kick off return. Yeah it is a good skill I agree, but I think it is just as good for elves as many bash teams. Elves if they have kick as well would kick deep then try and swarm the cage as you say. But with good defending you could prevent this from being a problem, all you need to do is set up 4 players in front of the player trying to catch the ball and he will be safe most of the time, setting up 4 players deep though, will make it a more tactical drive, you would really need to work hard to score. As for bash - think about it from a nurgle perspective though, you could kick short, then get your beast or other tentacle players and stick them next to the player that catches the ball, it could make trapping the ball carrier or forcing a quick score easier. It also makes it harder for teams to score one turn and two turn touchdowns, which really hits elves and skaven hard.

Wild Animal - yeah I'm still working on it, but as said Im getting a lot of feedback saying it makes them too bad, so it is a tough one. Im open to suggestions though, as you probably worked out, I want the wild animal players to be wild rather than standing still and doing nothing which is a bit lame. So please feel free to contribute.

fouling - Extra rolling, well again this is just difference of opinion, the number of dice rolls made seems to decrease every edition, and there are a number of people me included that want more dice rolling to be brought back again. But the more important thing is it adds more tactical play to the game, gives you more to consider and makes positional play and use of skills like Leap and Wrestle require more thought.

[Juriel]

I can see the appeal for Up & Under-like situation. I think it would be better as a kick-off event result (replace Pitch Invasion as the more balanced game-changer?), than as a trait. Otherwise elves will plan around it, and it benefits them the most, since ball bounces are so unpredictable, and they have the least trouble getting to and from the ball.

Wild Animal, I do like the idea of randomly wandering around, hitting whatever's in the way. I think you could just go without the 'move full MA in some direction' bit, and make it a 3+ roll, and I'd be more likely to use these Wild Animals. And rolling a failure when trying to get up means they still get up, they just take that random step after doing so. Why it needs to be 3+? Because they don't lose tackle zones when failing the roll, so they're instantly better than Bonehead - you can minimize the risk to your own players by just moving them away before activating the WA, so that's not a real risk, IMO, when it may just as well take down a troublesome opponent.

[garion]

Wild Animal, I do like the idea of randomly wandering around, hitting whatever's in the way. I think you could just go without the 'move full MA in some direction' bit, and make it a 3+ roll, and I'd be more likely to use these Wild Animals. And rolling a failure when trying to get up means they still get up, they just take that random step after doing so. Why it needs to be 3+? Because they don't lose tackle zones when failing the roll, so they're instantly better than Bonehead - you can minimize the risk to your own players by just moving them away before activating the WA, so that's not a real risk, IMO, when it may just as well take down a troublesome opponent.

Sorry could you just clarify exactly what you mean here, because I'm not sure what you would like to happen?

[Juriel]

Sorry could you just clarify exactly what you mean here, because I'm not sure what you would like to happen?

Wild Animal: acts as desired on 3+, goes wild on 1 and 2. Use the scatter template for taking one step if he does go wild.