Crazy suggested Rewrite for the Amazons

[Chris]

7/3/4/7 is a running stat, not a passing one. You have strength and agility. I just don't think their stats should ever be on a par with an elf.

[DoubleSkulls]

This is the roster I came up with a while ago

Code: Select all

0-16	Linewoman	50k	6	3	3	7	Fend	AG-PS
0-4	   Catcher	70k	8	2	3	7	Diving Catch, Dodge	AG-PS
0-2	   Thrower	70k	6	3	3	7	Hail Mary Pass, Pass, Safe Throw	AGP-S
0-4	   Blitzer	90k	7	3	3	8	Wrestle	AGS-P

At the same time Humans lost their 8237 catcher, the purpose being to make zons the fast/passing human team, and Humans most the Bash/Run team.

Universal A access means its easy to build a team of blodgers, but that you don't get it from the first skill.

[Juriel]

7/3/4/7 is a running stat, not a passing one. You have strength and agility.

My point is that ANYTHING is rather a running stat than a passing one, given the choice. You only pass when you absolutely have to.

I just don't think their stats should ever be on a par with an elf.

Then we need to think of a theme for them that doesn't involve passing. How should their gameplay look like?

Should they be the most mobile human version? That requires more speed, and Fend (since AG3 dodging is unreliable as hell). However, AV7 + Fend means half the time they won't be conscious after getting blocked, so either they need AV8 or Dodge protection.

Should they be a bog-down team that mires the opposition offense down? That's the default amazons as soon as the blitzers get Guard and the linewomen get Wrestle. Which has already been shown to be too weak and slow in the long run, yet too powerful early on.

Should they be a passing AG3 team? HMP is the only way to make them different than Humans in that regard, and HMP is not a plan, it's a hail mary. And Humans already do this as well as any AG3 team can, which explains why they're considered a running team.

[Juriel]

At the same time Humans lost their 8237 catcher, the purpose being to make zons the fast/passing human team, and Humans most the Bash/Run team.

Yep, I don't think we can look at Amazons without fixing Humans in the same go. Getting a ST3 A access player on the human team would be a definite boon, while Amazons getting more speed is pretty vital.

I'd gladly give Doubleskulls's roster a go, but I think it has an even bigger problem in the long run than the basic amazon team.

But Amazon = speed and finesse, Humans = speed and bash, Norse = bash would be a pretty valid difference, I think.

[dode74]

AG3 Strong Arm, Pass and P access would make for a passer rather than a runner. Add DC on the receivers and you have a fairly decent option to pass. The problem is that passing is inherently more risky than running no matter how good your thrower is, as I pointed out here.

[Juriel]

The problem is that passing is inherently more risky than running no matter how good your thrower is, as I pointed out here.

Which is my whole problem with people trying to focus on that approach. No-one passes if they have an option to achieve the same with a hand-off, it's just the nature of the game.

Building AG3 to be good for passing play requires so many extra skills that they end up costlier than an AG4 (i.e. elf) equivalent, with no room to grow at that point. The gulf between AG3 and AG4 is just so huge, but that's a whole different peeve.

[DoubleSkulls]

That's sort of why I thought making the 'zons a specialist AG3 passing team might be an idea. You can give them skills for "free" in the starting roster so that development doesn't need to divert away from the fundamentals (Blodge, Guard etc).

When I put that roster together I think it was unclear Humans were performing as badly as they are, so that roster would probably need some buff. Blitzers should probably be 80k or perhaps get Fend or something similar. Perhaps give the Catchers catch. Then they've got the stuff that makes them good catchers and can focus on survival skills (Block, SS, Fend), Icing (NoS, Sprint, Sure Feet) or defence (SS, DT etc). Perhaps even swap HMP for Strong Arm on the throwers.

I think a roster like that probably has decent offence, but may struggle on D.

[garion]

Personally I still like mine the best out of all i have seen, it fits the fluff reasonably well, gives them more of a chance against dwarves and chaos dwarves and makes them a little weaker vs everyone else because of the lack of block

0-16 Linewomen 6 3 3 7 Dodge G SPA 50k
0-2 Throwers 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Pass, Accurate GP AS 80k
0-4 Catchers 8 3 3 7 Diving Catch, Nerves of Steel GA SP 70k
0-2 Blitzers 6 3 3 8 Dodge, Stand Firm GS AP 100k
0-1 Ogress 5 5 2 9 Loner, Bone Head, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow, Throw Team Mate S GAP 140k

[Chris]

I definatively don't like a big guy turning up on the team. That list though strikes me as more powerful than the current team though? I get the big guy for the line and very fast str3 players?

I initally wasn't serious, but looking at it wouldn't a 6/3/3/7 Pass GA linewoman be an interesting option. I recognise passing as the inferior play, however here you have the majority of the team can pass better than a basic AG4 elf. It would mean if you can get your hands on the ball and with good catchers, there is a big threat that you will be able to move it in a pinch far further than a regular running team. Fits with the whole signiture archer thing too.
I am happy to keep 4 blodge blitzers, I think thats an important defining option.
Then its just the catcher - do you use skills or ag 4 to make it. Skills decline in worth over TV but mean you are good to go from the bat which gives a boost long term with the attrition you will certainly suffer with the team.
An additional option is for Ag4 throwers who would be the elite as it were.

So something like

0-16 Linewoman 6/3/3/7 Pass GA
0-4 Blitzers 7/3/3/7 Block, Dodge GAS
Then either
0-4 Catcher 8/2/4/7 Dodge, Catch GA
Or
0-x Catcher 8/2/3/7 Dodge, Catch, Diving Catch
0-2 Thrower 6/3/4/7 Sure Hands, Pass GAP

Both those options give a very high threat of passing (and catching), I think on par with an Ag4 team.

[garion]

its definately not more powerful, they lose 4 blodge players, now have no block on the team and their catchers have lost Dodge, it gives them a little more Ma so they can compete vs dwarves, the zons already have a big guy called bertha, but she is only a star player, so she fits that way, plus the big guy just makes them a little more solid at a higher TV.

Playtesting so far has been quite good actually and at least they arent so mind numbingly boring to play.

[DoubleSkulls]

I think one of the other things I was trying to get away from was the spammed dodge on a starting team. I just don't like the way it makes them really good against most teams and rubbish against others.

[Glamdryn]

That's sort of why I thought making the 'zons a specialist AG3 passing team might be an idea. You can give them skills for "free" in the starting roster so that development doesn't need to divert away from the fundamentals (Blodge, Guard etc).

I did not know that they were meant to be a specialist passing team... From the fluff I have read, it sounded like they were just really fast and sneaky runners. But if the design intent was a fast/sneaky passing team then how bout this slight change:

0-16 Linewoman 6337 Dodge 50k G (normal)
0-4 Piranha Warrior 7337 Shadowing 60k GA (Piranha helmet and camo looking)
0-2 Eagle Warrior 6337 Accurate, Kick-Off Return, Pass Block, Strong Arm, Sure Hands 120k GP (Eagle headdress)
0-2 Huntress 6428 Claw, Dauntless, Guard, Wild Animal 130k GS (Amazing Amazon on a Jaguar, more armored)

60k RRs

Humans are Ag3, so throw out all those crazy Ag4 ideas. I upped the cost of the EW by 10k, got rid of dodge and added Accurate and Strong Arm. The new Eagle Warrior is as specialized as you can get for ball handling, just loaded up with skills with a hefty price tag. Lowered the Ag on Huntress to prevent a running game with them. Also lowered MA on the EW to deter from a running game.

Also was thinking about giving the PWs Diving Catch to facilitate further passing.

[garion]

Yeah it is certainly a trick one. Personally I would rather they were just scrapped all together, but getting rid of too much Dodge takes away their identity I feel.

My aim was to try make them a little weaker at a low TV especially defensively and a little more solid at a high TV. I did this by reducing their Blitzers to two and getting rid of Block from the roster all together so they are more vulnerable all round. Putting a Big Guy in makes up for the loss of the 2 St players and adds a little muscle and Av to the team, but decreases the teams reliability some what. Losing Block also makes them a little less reliable.

I also removed Dodge from the catchers who are like poor versions of Elf Catchers really. This makes them incredibly vulnerable but very important players for scoring against teams like Dwarves or Chaos dwarves who had previously caused them so much trouble. But it makes them weaker defensively against all teams while making no difference against dwarves and Chaos Dwarves.

It took a long time to get the balance right, but in limited play testing they have done okay.

1 draw vs dwarves
1 loss to humans
1 win vs Chaos
1 win vs Pro elves

I know very limited but I have found them much more enjoyable to play with an against. The extra Av on the Blockers helps and Stand Firm on them makes them quite interesting tactically.

I also like your roster above, but it just seems a little too weak as a high Tv team, probably even worse off than their current roster. But it is at least interesting.

[Chris]

Incidentally what background are people thinking of with these girls? I think
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons

[Glamdryn]

There is some interesting stuff here:

http://battlereporter.blogspot.com/2010 ... -army.html