Narrow Tiers and Galaks Wish List

[plasmoid]

Hi Dode,
that's a possibilty.
5338 pass + skill might make them less useful.
But what would be an interesting skill that isn't OP.
On the other nerfed teams I've used a new skill - so that might be Kick-off return....
I'm just not sure that's a nerf.
NOS or HMP might be nerfs... But don't make much sense to me...

Hmmm....
Besides, there's the problem that not many early orc teams bother with the thrower.
Which is sort of also the problem with the fix I already have.

Lots of people have questioned the nerf, and I'm starting to wonder whether it's the right one.

I'm leaning towards simply making orc blitzers 90K.
That may break the pricing formula, but I think it is a very comment sentiment that the orc blitzer is currently a steal.

Cheers
Martin

[dodolulu]

maybe orcs wont suffer much from losing the thrower, but in my perception humans and orcs are both teams that are the nearest to the "jack-of-all-trades" theme, with a little bit more emphasis to passing for the humans and a little bit more bashing for the orcs (although the little more bashing might be a bit understated). while the humans dont have blockers, the orcs lack (dedicated) catchers.
i feel taking the passing option from the orcs doesnt only hurt that concept it also makes orcs a worse nurgle long term (not chaos).

so what about taking the troll away from the orcs? with av9 on everyone except goblins and throwers, they dont really need a punching bag, it will make them a little bit more reliable (i remember a thread here where someone played a quite successful orc-team with only linemen, blitzers and goblins, the ag3-guys) hurts their bashing a little bit but let them keep their elementary passing play.

[Lamanzer]

My two cents...

1) Don't change pilling on (the problem is not Pilling on, but Claws+MB)

2) ok, fouling needs a boost

3) ok

4) Dependings... In my opinion Stunty teams must suck. But in order to help them, it's good idea

5) Banking is a good idea (150k)

6) ok

7) ok

No wizard in a blood bowl game

9) Human: ok for 130k ogre. Catcher Av8 is the best choice

10) Khemri:
BlitzRas and ThroRas get Thick Skull: ok
Just remove Decay from Tomb Guardian

[Aliboon]

4 black orcs = 4 slow clumsy chaos warriors at -20k

4 Blitzers = 4 Beastmen with block instead of horns, +1 av, +20k

Linemen = +1av, -1ma, no horns, no st access bst at -10k

Troll = very sturdy but slow Minotaur

and of course no M access anywhere

Orcs are disadvantaged at every position, their only style change/advantage would be using goblins as catchers.. with no throwers. They become weak (as in less effective, or lower tier) chaos. You could even give linemen st access at no extra cost and they don't stack up.

Sorry, really, really, really disagree.

I'd agree that Chaos warriors are better than Black Orcs, but that is it. Chaos > Orcs

A lineman's main job (at least on a bash team) is to stand on the LOS/tie up big guys and get hit. Here horns have no impact at all, AV is much more important than MA and the lineorc is 10k cheaper. Orcs Chaos.

The minotaur is called the minotard for a reason. He is overpriced, AV8 and prone to turnover. The only reason to take him is for mutation access, so after a few skills, he does become a monster. The troll is a lump who can take hits, he isn't better than the the minotaur, but is a lot cheaper 9so is better value) and will at least stand up when he gets knocked over. I'd prefer a troll over a minotaur, but because of the mutation access, Orcs = Chaos.

Orc blitzers are one of the best value rookie pieces in the game. 4 x block beats 4 x horns hands down. They are the same MA and the blitzer is AV9. After 4 skills I'd concede that the beastman would be a better "killer blitzer" (horns, block, MB, Claw, PO) than the orc (block, MB, PO, tackle, frenzy) but even that is pretty marginal. Some other builds the beastman would win (dedicated ball carrier) but overall the blitzer is a better player than the beastman. Orcs > Chaos.

At really high (200+) TVs Chaos are better than orcs, but then at that level they are better than pretty much everyone...

[Aliboon]

5338 pass + skill might make them less useful.
But what would be an interesting skill that isn't OP.

Strong Arm? Might be overpowered in the long term though.

[Daht]

Sorry, really, really, really disagree.

I'd agree that Chaos warriors are better than Black Orcs, but that is it. Chaos > Orcs

A lineman's main job (at least on a bash team) is to stand on the LOS/tie up big guys and get hit. Here horns have no impact at all, AV is much more important than MA and the lineorc is 10k cheaper. Orcs Chaos.

The minotaur is called the minotard for a reason. He is overpriced, AV8 and prone to turnover. The only reason to take him is for mutation access, so after a few skills, he does become a monster. The troll is a lump who can take hits, he isn't better than the the minotaur, but is a lot cheaper 9so is better value) and will at least stand up when he gets knocked over. I'd prefer a troll over a minotaur, but because of the mutation access, Orcs = Chaos.

Orc blitzers are one of the best value rookie pieces in the game. 4 x block beats 4 x horns hands down. They are the same MA and the blitzer is AV9. After 4 skills I'd concede that the beastman would be a better "killer blitzer" (horns, block, MB, Claw, PO) than the orc (block, MB, PO, tackle, frenzy) but even that is pretty marginal. Some other builds the beastman would win (dedicated ball carrier) but overall the blitzer is a better player than the beastman. Orcs > Chaos.

At really high (200+) TVs Chaos are better than orcs, but then at that level they are better than pretty much everyone...

Usually orc LOS is run by black orcs and/or trolls. Orc linemen are almost a non entity if you have any goblins. I guess with no throwers you'll have at least 2, but they'd be compared to beastmen as backfielders or ball carriers unless you used 4/4/2/9 black orcs for that. Chaos are a one trick pony team that excel at that, orcs are more diverse, and if you just cut the pass/ball play from the team they become a step-behind chaos or nurgle or dwarves at smashing a 2-1 grind.

Orc blitzers are very nice, a bit better than a beastman to start for the money, but once the beast gets block and the orc gets anything else but a +1 ag/st at first skill, the beast is as good or better, and cheaper

As-is the throwers make orcs very strong out of the box, but at higher team value they are more balanced as a decent bash team with some ball positions.

[Aliboon]

Still can't agree with you Daht.

On defence Orcs "should" have a troll and 2 linos on the LOS and the BOs and Blitzers in the back field (blitzers probably in the widezones) unless the orcs have a huge strength advantage over the opos. (Why risk an 80k BO on the LOS when a 50k lino is just as resilient, it's not difficult to get 2ds on the LOS afterall). Linos on Orc offence are pretty much superfluous though.

The beastman with block is the same price as the orc blitzer, the only thing he is then better at is blitzing with his effective ST4 (but if an orc player can't engineer an assist on the blitz, them they are doing something very wrong...). Would you really rather have a block beastman than a guard or tackle or MB orc blitzer?

Without throwers, I'd use a blitzer as the ball carrier (which is what many orc coaches do anyway), I don't see why people would use the linos or BOs for that if they didn't have throwers!? I'd use the gobbo over the BO...

I also don't see why a chaos team couldn't develop to pose a substantial 2 turn TD threat either-a couple of extra arms "catchers" and a sure hands, strong arm "thrower" and they're there.

[GalakStarscraper]

I like what Plasmoid is trying to do ... but after trying not to post ... I did want to post that since Plasmoid put my name on it ... I really wanted to post what my 8 suggestions where for testing because I don't agree with a lot of the stuff on Plasmoid's list and while he says that ... with my name here and my original list never quoted ... I just wanted to list it:

If someone asked me what would I would have TESTED for changes for LRB 7 if such a creature were to happen .. my list currently looks like:

1) Sneaky Git works as it does now and like Guard for fouling assists
2) +1 to the AV for a foul if the fouler is not in an opposing tackle zone
3) -10k for Human Blitzers
4) +1 AV to Human Catchers (no price change)
5) MA 6 to Snotling (no price change)
6) Right Stuff prevents Tackle from negating Dodge for Pow!
7) Bank rules at either 100k or 150k
8) A player cannot use his skills that modify the Armour or Injury roll when using a Piling On re-roll

I could also agree with removing #5 and replacing it with changing Ogres on the Ogre and Human team to 130k in price instead.

Oh and I'm also okay if folks wanted to remove Decay from the Tomb Guardians and give them AV 8 or +10k to price, remove Decay, AV 8 and Break Tackle

That's my list.

Tom

[plasmoid]

Hi Tom,
please let me know if you think it reads like you're condoning the roster tweaks.
I'll happily put up a big fat disclaimer.

Oh - and if you have your original list up somewhere pretty, I'll happily link to it.

Cheers
Martin

PS - I still think that ogres deserve both the changes. They're a terrible team. But I guess agree to disagree is the good solution

[GalakStarscraper]

Hi Tom,
please let me know if you think it reads like you're condoning the roster tweaks.
I'll happily put up a big fat disclaimer.

It was more the fact that beside the roster tweaks ... your page is more your list. An example being that the change Ian and I support for Piling On is mentioned in passing on yours in favour of your suggestion.

So it was more just to lay out what my original list was ... NOT because its better .... but to make sure all facts were properly available for thought in the discussions.

Tom

[graeme27uk]

I've found, eventually, the original topic where these changes were discussed. As expected people take sides and it is always quite amusing to read posts that changing the game is like breaking some sacred law and is heresy!

Don't think Plasmoid is that heretical....

I quite like some of the changes and I can see the need for them.

The Rosters:

Goblins - I like the idea of having three trolls. Three stupid trolls. Gives them some more strength, more throw goblin ability. Would it also break the team or go too far if their special weapons were 0-2 instead of 0-1. Goblins are revered for their use of secret weapons and so should be able to capitilise on this like no other team. Goblin Doomdiver-esk secret weapon for being thrown (down the pitch or at players); goblin sneaky git assassins with stab; Squig Hoppers; all these things are goblin specials. Or should be.

Ogres - I still think snotlings are completely useless, even if they do only cost 20K. Ogres and Gnoblars (goblins) would be ok, but snotlings is just taking it to the extreme.

Halflings - AV increase is always useful, I can't see any Halfling coach complaining. I think though for stunty teams the passing game is about throwing the stunty (with the ball) rather than just throwing the ball. This is what really makes stunty teams stand out and could be more reliable. Opens a completely different way of playing and would keep the other team on their toes. I also like the idea of halfling positionals like the Sous Chef and such, though this runs the problem of Halflings becoming "good goblins". Fatties sound very Halfling like (I envisage Halfling "blockers" wearing pot-helms, bound up with pillows, etc). Maybe there is a positional that is trained in the art of being flung by a treeman... a halfling Flinger.


I tend to agree with Plasmoid that the need to gimp team rosters isn't really there. If you like a challenge then you can gimp yourself in many ways; play with less than 11 players on pitch, increase your TV, give your foe an extra re-roll or whatever. The stunty teams overall should play differently to non-stunties. The Throw-Team-Mate tactic is the thing that makes stunties really stand out. Sure you may be able to bash you way through them but all it takes is one small fellow to be flung into your half and its a TD. And at the end of the day it's TD's that count.


Just out of interest, in WHFB undead used to have a fixed ranged to hit regardless of modifiers. Could you not make Thro-Ra's automatically succeed on a throw on a 5+ instead of 6+? Would that be too good?

Other stuff seems to make sense, though the changes to PO seem a bit lack luster. Its now become MB but you go prone. Being prone has its own disavantages, though on the other hand if it stacks with MB as well then it needs something to regulate it I guess.

[plasmoid]

Hi Graeme,
good of you to stop by
I've just uploaded the v2.0, based on feedback from this thread and one on FUMBBL.
The playtest tournament is wrapping up the 3rd round, and so far I'm liking what I see.

4 things were changed for version 2:
*Lots of people have commented that I forgot to nerf amazons. Thing with amazons is like undead they start out super strong, but then their performance suddenly drops off. So like undead I'll be short term nerfing them, but also giving them a long term buff. Blitzers get wrestle rather than Block. But the whole team gains A-access.

*Scratching orc throwers wasn't a very popular decision. Instead I'm going with a simple solution: 90K blitzers. Because they're worth it

*Ogre team - I'm told I didn't go far enough. I don't want to change the roster composition, so I've extended the 10K discount to be on both ogres and rerolls. That should knock 10 points off a developed team's TV, which is probably a lot more accurate anyway. I've also added +1AV on the snots. 6136 is still terrible. But I think this makes them playable.

*The halfling dryads were not popular on the forums. I thought a stunty team with a bit of a passing game would be very interesting to play. Sigh. I've previously had halflings at AV8 (5238, as a mirror of the gobbo 6237), but that didn't go over well either. Double sigh. I've decided to go another route entirely: Scratch the dryads, and give them a rostered master chef (on top of the ability to induce one). It will certainly make playing against the Flings a unique experience.

Graeme - as for your thoughts about TTM: I've always loved TTM. But making it too OTS reliable is probably a bad idea. I've suggested many times before a +1 modifier to landing, when the player doesn't hold the ball. I think it would be awesome. But I won't be adding it to my list of important changes.

*Khemri - I don't see a problem with the 5+ thro-ra thing. It just seems a bit cludgey. And nobody will be bothering with anything 5+ anyway. I like the Break Tackle roster. But a simpler fix might have been to make throras 6237. But I digress.

*Finally - yep, the PO solution is lacklustre. But the stacking is what makes a nerf required. I'll probably shift to Ian and Galaks solution anyway, even though I do like mine better. I think it's just me and Dode that prefer mine, so I think it's a lost cause.

Cheers
Martin

[graeme27uk]

What were your thoughts on increasing the goblin special positions to 0-2 instead of 0-1? It's a personal thing maybe but I like special weapons, even though I don't have my gobbo team yet.

Amazons aren't that amazing. Sure they have the potential to be all Blodge, but in reality thats unlikely. I like the idea of there being another AG3 team with AG access. Plus amazon basic stats are nothing to shout home about...

Ogres and Snotlings... its the snotlings I think that break the team. They are useless and completely gimped. No tackle zone, 3 dice block against without assists, easily removed off pitch, not that fast really. Ogres are ok, and the price decrease helps them. It's the fact they are paired with something useless. Imagine the scenario when you have the majority of your ogres bone-headed, you have hardly any tackle-zones so the other team can literally walk past you unchallenged.

That can't be right under any circumstance.

Regarding TTM. What are the arguments against improving as you stated? People don't seem to complain too much when playing against stunty teams, as long as they are pretty certain of a win. The fact that an effective TTM tactic would make stunty teams more of a loss threat, but in a completely different way, I think adds another dimension to the game.

You could even somehow make it so that Goblins are better at using the "Goblin-Cannon" tactic of using TTM as a weapon, and Halflings are better at the scoring using TTM.

Regarding the Khemri thing, I know a 5+ is not that good, but its better than a 6+. Just a thought to make Thro-Ra's better at throwing other than simply increasing their AG which affects lots of other rolls.

PO isn't really too much of an issue either way. I just dislike PO making my players go prone (its a psychological thing).

[legowarrior]

If Amazons get Wrestle instead of Block, give then +1 movement so that the they are a little more cost effective.

[uuni]

If Amazons get Wrestle instead of Block, give then +1 movement so that the they are a little more cost effective.

Perhaps the Blitzer price could instead be reduced to 80k? If I remember correctly, most team creationg formulas say that the Amazon Blitzers have been 10k overpriced regarding the normal formula.

***

Also, I would like to again bring forth my suggestion of rising the price of Fan Factor to 20k per piece. This should dampen the effect of coach skill level especially in small leagues. I think this is in parallel in the effort of balancing the rosters.

FF price increase would in my opinion give about 30-70k more inducements to losing coaches when compared to the current status quo. Also, the Spiralling Expenses low limit should probably rise with difference of 10 FF piece TV.

The original suggestion thread.viewtopic.php?f=16&t=32463