Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Got some ideas for rules? Maybe a skill change or something completely different!!! Tell us here.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by Warpstone »

mepmuff wrote:What's wrong with the term 'house rules'?
It implies rigging in favour of an institutional agenda. For example, Canadian Football has a rule that penalizes punts that are kicked out of bounds. This is because they want to create more punt returns.

BTW, I would argue though that this is in play in Galak and Spubbbba's points. Perpetual Blood Bowl without competitions for context is open to abuse. In LRB6, you can win or you can player kill, but it's harder than before to be great at both (i.e. LRB5 Khemri).

IMO, the solution on FUMBBL should be relegation/promotion within blackbox. If you win you stay in a top grouping of competitive teams. If you lose you go down. Teams that specialize in killing before winning self-filter into a lower division. If they can kill and win, so be it. That's blood bowl. Winning is the only non-arbitrary measure of success available. Commishes should use this to "incentivize" good meta-conditions before they consider tinkering with the in-game rules.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by dode74 »

Winning is the only non-arbitrary measure of success available. Commishes should use this to "incentivize" good meta-conditions before they consider tinkering with the in-game rules.
Fully agree with this.
Perpetual Blood Bowl without competitions for context is open to abuse.
Bit dubious about this - define "abuse".

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Warpstone wrote:IMO, the solution on FUMBBL should be relegation/promotion within blackbox. If you win you stay in a top grouping of competitive teams. If you lose you go down. Teams that specialize in killing before winning self-filter into a lower division. If they can kill and win, so be it. That's blood bowl. Winning is the only non-arbitrary measure of success available. Commishes should use this to "incentivize" good meta-conditions before they consider tinkering with the in-game rules.
I would be very curious if you divided into 3 divisions based on this without changing the CRP rules and see what happens.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by Daht »

Warpstone wrote:
mepmuff wrote:What's wrong with the term 'house rules'?
IMO, the solution on FUMBBL should be relegation/promotion within blackbox. If you win you stay in a top grouping of competitive teams. If you lose you go down. Teams that specialize in killing before winning self-filter into a lower division. If they can kill and win, so be it. That's blood bowl. Winning is the only non-arbitrary measure of success available. Commishes should use this to "incentivize" good meta-conditions before they consider tinkering with the in-game rules.
Well that would just mostly funnel the bash teams in the top grouping.. the main problem with blackbox over leagues and tournaments in fummbl is that there is no significant meta-game, it's just pick up games.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by Warpstone »

dode74 wrote:
Perpetual Blood Bowl without competitions for context is open to abuse.
Bit dubious about this - define "abuse".
The rules are written with the expectation that you at least try to win and that team building doesn't occur in a vacuum. In a scheduled league, you never have to worry about this as anyone who commits to player killing tactics is probably not getting to far up the table or into the playoffs. There's a competitive price paid for being overly blood-hungry, and that's fair enough.

But in open play, especially in a monster-size pool like Blackbox, the player-killer faces meager repercussions (low FF and winnings). Leagues and tournaments have goals that anchor your in-game tactics (i.e. I need a result here to get to the next round or get by on goal diffrence, etc.). But pure open play without any filter to sort "normal" play from PK play can't offer any balance between the two. The results are literally vacuous.

I'm not sure how BWR is calculated. But if successful teams are routinely encountering dedicated PK teams on a regular basis, then the solution is found in revamping this algorithm to better sort teams that bash to win from teams that bash just to bash. The TS matching algorithm is simply an awful idea. It's an attempt to out-game the game with arbitrary valuations of multiple variables. Again, the only non-arbitrary factor that could decide fair match-ups is winning.

BTW, the caveat to all this is that the general FUMBBL community still does need to suck it up. There's a man-barbie syndrome in open play. Even player killer teams deserve sincere match-ups if they win enough to justify it. I'm only advocating that CLAWMBPO spammers and similar PK-coaches with no intention of playing for a result be relegated to a hell of their own making.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by dode74 »

Nicely put. Fully agree. One suggestion we came up with on Cyanide was matching by ranking, which would achieve similar results - effectively making MM a ladder system.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by plasmoid »

Warpstone - well put.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by Wylder »

Daht wrote:Well that would just mostly funnel the bash teams in the top grouping.
No, it wouldn't.

If bash was just literally better at winning games, no one would have a problem with it. The whole point is that CMBPO spam on a team is not competetive with most teams that follow a more normal progression path. They don't win, they just break the opponents team.

Divisions based on win percentages would move CMBPO teams into the low divisions, while top divisions would be full of more normally developed teams.

The problem with multiple divisions in the Fumbbl BlackBox is that it's often hard to get enough players active to get games scheduled as it is. Multiple divisions would mean large swathes of hours on end with no game schedule possible, effectively killing the box.

Personally, I think BB is best in the TR120~TR180 range anyway, so I don't really see CMBPO as a problem anyway. All of those teams suffer from massive bloat fairly quickly so I won't be playing them. If I encounter them on the way up through building their killer team at lower TRs, I'll consider it an easy win. I have enough experience to know that my teams are probably going to survive a matchup with a bash team that has no block or guard regardless, even when I'm playing skaven.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by duttydave »

Wylder wrote:Personally, I think BB is best in the TR120~TR180 range anyway, so I don't really see CMBPO as a problem anyway. All of those teams suffer from massive bloat fairly quickly so I won't be playing them. If I encounter them on the way up through building their killer team at lower TRs, I'll consider it an easy win. I have enough experience to know that my teams are probably going to survive a matchup with a bash team that has no block or guard regardless, even when I'm playing skaven.
Bloat doesn't effect certain killer teams. Coaches can play lots of games in a very short space of time and fine tune or min/max their players and TV. For example:

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=642529

Whilst this doesn't guarantee a win for the min/maxer it can make your victory over them a hollow one when you don't have much of a team left for the next game. I don't want to sound like a 'pixel hugger' but many coaches do like to build teams and are a bit disappointed at having them smashed into retirement by someone whose only skill is knowing when to press 'Y' to Pile-On in order to win. Many coaches avoid the B division altogether and cherry pick their games in Ranked (a whole new can of worms).

I'm of no strong opinion either way. However, I've signed up for a House Rules League in the L division to test the proposed rules.

I'm sure the community doesn't want a 'Camel being a horse designed by a committee scenario'. Therefore, the only official rules changes I'd like to see would be those passed through a 'BBRC' type body headed up by Galak, Doubleskulls et al. Unfortunately, this is not likely to happen, at least not for some considerable period of time if at all.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by Smurf »

I said before that we had an 'accept challenge rule'

If you could challenge people with equal or greater wins than you. This works well in a multi team per coach league. You may goad people with less wins than you to challenge but they can refuse with impunity.

This lets new players and teams to scurry down the bottom a bit and when they start to show promise they naturally gravitate towards the 'big players'.

General rule thumb... it is a game we enjoy and that enjoyment is shared amongst both teams. A good defeat is fair, even a thrashing, but the beard/munchkin/whiner is not welcomed. Don't stall when you don't have to, note you can stall secretly by not moving the ball/cage forward but no deliberate (UK euphanism) 'goal hangers'. It is legitimate not to GFI to score. But when 3 guys stand on the goal line whilst 8 guys spend umpteen turns kicking in the other team is not going to make a good game. Although, I had spend 15 turns defending against Nurgle to win 1-0. The point is Nurgle could not get passed my defence for those 15 turns was amusing and sore for me.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by spubbbba »

I think we need to differentiate between the 2 main types of Claw/MB/PO teams, there are those who just like to kill stuff (and there were plenty of them in previous versions too) so will take all damaging skills and those who use the most effective skills to win games.

For bashy teams players removal is key to winning games, it’s very hard to beat agile teams like elves if you can’t get any of them off the pitch as they are very good at stealing the ball or can just retreat a square a turn and stop you scoring.

The most dangerous teams are those that have a few killers and still focus on the key skills such as block, guard and tackle along with some ball handling skills such as +AG and sure hands. I think RandomOracle is the best example of this as he has been very successful in both lackbox and Cyanide’s MM with Chaos. His teams wrack up the casualties but also win a lot.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by garion »

Smurf wrote:I said before that we had an 'accept challenge rule'
There is it is called Ranked, Blackbox is a different division. Ranked it arguably the one that adhears to the rules more because people can refuse challanges if they want, which ultimately leads to CPOMB teams never getting games. Though this doesn't distract from the shortcomings in the rules as a whole and the problems with CPOMB being overpowered as it stands. However that said I think the skill combination would be perfectly acceptable if both Claw and Pilling On were only obtainable via doubles.

What I am saying is - bring back traits, they would solve most of the problems with the rules, without having to change the effect skills have.

It would also stop stupid players like CPOMB werewolves, which imo should never be possible and has detracted from the uniqueness of that team and player a lot.

So bring back traits, make fouling more powerful (+1 to av roll) so all teams can bash and not just cpomb ones and then bring back igeomy.

With bringing traits in you would also be able to cobine FA and DP again. Improve Tentacles make it a trait. Maybe two heads would be a trait as well.

A major improvement to Sneaky Git would be nice, make it a trait. Something like re-roll foul roll same as PO basically.

PO becomes a trait, its exaclty the same but only obtainable on a double to those players that can have it now, but Big guys get it on a normal roll.

Dauntless back to trait, allow it to stack with Horns and mutliblock take the roll back to lrb4 dauntless roll, 2D6 if higher than opponents St you pass the roll

Make Leader a general Trait again, instead of a pass only skill. Strong arm a passing trait.
Probably going to be unpopular but make Wrestle a General trait this is for balance, to stop Elves being stupidly powerful as a result of wrestle. It would stop them spamming it so much and so that its not only bash getting made to take doubles to create the team they want.

reduce the cost of +St to +40
+Ma stays the same as does Ag and Av
Also double 6 can remove a negatrait at a cost of +40Tv

Bring back secret weapon rolls too

and as a result start spirraling expenses higher as more doubles will need to be taken etc...

Some changes to the rosters (like give Vamps P access) is needed too but not going into that here.

something like this is the way forward imo and before you jump to defence think about it, these rules would certainly make the game better imo.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by Lychanthrope »

garion wrote: What I am saying is - bring back traits....
Not ever going to happen. I'm not sure it would do any of the things you think it would, but that's a moot point as it will never happen. Personally, I didn't like LRB4 and do not want to go back to anything that looks like it.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by garion »

I know its never going to happen the BBRC are gone, but isnt this a what if discussion? But I am 100% it would do all the things I think it would hence me suggesting them. Obviously in Bloodbowl no rule set is ever going to please everyone, such is the nature of the game, but what was not to like about lrb4 except ageing, which is gone and the handicaps which are gone?

For me handicaps being replaced by inducements and journeymen coming in were the only positive steps made by lrb6 and the introduction of the new teams if you count them. Wrestle is quite interesting too.

I also wasn't a huge fan of ageing either, but i did understand the importance of it.

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Re: Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

Post by koadah »

You can check out the house rules on Fumbbl here folks.

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group ... group=7542

Sneaky plug. ;)

Warpstone wrote: IMO, the solution on FUMBBL should be relegation/promotion within blackbox. If you win you stay in a top grouping of competitive teams. If you lose you go down. Teams that specialize in killing before winning self-filter into a lower division. If they can kill and win, so be it. That's blood bowl. Winning is the only non-arbitrary measure of success available. Commishes should use this to "incentivize" good meta-conditions before they consider tinkering with the in-game rules.
I doubt if there are enough coaches for multiple 'sub divisions'. Also, the rookies would get stuck in with the team manglers. Way to kill off new blood.

I'm not so keen on the Bank either. It seems to penalise the wussier teams more than the bashers.

Traits seem like a good idea but if someone gets lucky and creates a monster teams it would be harder to create to team to compete with them.

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