Why are Human Catchers 70K?

[besters]

Just giving Catchers P access on a normal upgrade would probably be enough to balance them without changing their team roll. Guaranteed access to Nerves of Steel and Dump-off is very attractive.

Now that is a suggestion I haven't heard before, it might even bring some passing back into the game!

On a slightly different tack, I think Humans are in the box because they are easy to play, that said, I think they are difficult to play well.

But people new to the game look at the Throwers and Catchers and think they should be a passing team and playing that way can be a lot of fun, particularly if you don't think about the odds a lot..

[Grumbledook]

Just giving Catchers P access on a normal upgrade would probably be enough to balance them without changing their team roll. Guaranteed access to Nerves of Steel and Dump-off is very attractive.

not skills I would want on mine to be honest, certainly not dump off, nerves of steel may be handy on one but I wouldn't take it on all of them

[Jural]

You said that at the time it was created, the Human Catcher was a 70K piece. This implies that it isn't now. And the HE Catcher was created at exactly the same time and is so, so clearly better value. +1ST and +1AG for the loss of normally accessible skill and 10K more. Same with GRs.

Yes, I think you have it now (it being my opinion). In my mind, the human catcher was appropriately costed at launch, and so was the high elf catcher. The evolution of the game still keeps the high elf catcher appropriately costed, but the human catcher may suffer and therefore a price increase would be appropriate.

They are perfect catchers, with both Catch and Dodge and MA 8. They will almost never burn a team re-roll. There is value in being so good out of the box.

Really? So ST2 and AG3 are perfect?!

Out of the box, when your team is low on re-rolls, the human catcher is the best catcher regarding just the simple odds of success for catching the ball. There is value to that.

The point I was trying to make more recently is that perhaps this value is overrated. Because just as you said, you can be successful without ever even making a catch roll all game!

So where does that leave everything? 60k human catchers? Add on a skill? It just seems to me like the catchers are worth more than 60k, they seem to be much more valuable than a human lineman.

I'd therefore recommend that either blitzers get the -10k that the catchers "should" get, or that the catchers get a skill which makes them an appropriate 70k piece (Sprint, Sure Feet, Fend, Diving Catch?)

But I'd also like to re-iterate- most people take a "if they aren't broke, don't fix them" attitude with humans. So it's possible this will never have momentum.

[Master Wang]

I'd add a PUSH to give it momentum if I thought there was anywhere to push to. I like playing as humans because winning with them is satisfying due to no AG4 and no stand out superstar players. A small buff to catchers would be welcome because, as I said on page 1, they are far from the top of my to buy list when building my team.

[Warpstone]

But I'd also like to re-iterate- most people take a "if they aren't broke, don't fix them" attitude with humans. So it's possible this will never have momentum.

Do they? I always thought it was common opinion that humans are near the bottom of tier 1 teams for long term league play?

I think you hit the nail on the head with the catchers being appropriately valued way back when they were first introduced and that "value creep" on other teams has mitigated the human team's effectiveness at the same TVs.

[bjorn9486]

OK, I'll wade into this conversation. Flame Shield up!

0-4 Pro Elf Catcher 8347 Catch, NoS 100k
0-4 High Elf Catcher 8347 Catch 90k
0-4 Gutter Runners 9247 Dodge 80k
0-4 Human Catcher 8237 Catch, Dodge 70k
0-4 Wood Elf Catcher 6247 Catch, Dodge, Sprint 90k
0-4 Slann Catcher 7247 Diving Catch, Leap, VLL 80k

Those are the basically the 4 positions being compared in this conversation.

Suggestion 1 - Reduce the price of human catchers to 60k
I couldn't care less about catchers being priced down to 60k, as I don't even see them worth that. Maybe if they were brought down to 50k I might buy more than 2 (yes I know that is the price of a lineman).

Suggestion 2 - Give them block/fend/another skill.
Once again, not worth the value.

I see human catchers as a one trick pony; they are used to score quickly. Now none of the positions listed are designed to get into a slug fest, but the human catcher are especially not being strength two and agility three. Unless specifically designed, they are not that good at defense, needing an assist to get a single dice block against the ball carrier and if you are man-marking with a catcher, most opponents will block/blitz them away with ease. So with this in mind, here are my two suggestions:

Suggestion 1 - Give them either ST 3 and increase the price to 90k. I would gladly take 4 of them then, even at AV 7, and it would give the human team more options than they currently have.

Suggestion 2 (and here is where I need the flame shield) - Bring all catchers down to strength 2. I think catchers should be just that, fast but fragile scoring machines. The ability to turn some into blitzers is just too easy. For some teams that may mean no change, but some may need more blitzers or cheaper lineman to offset the loss of strength.

[Jural]

I think you missed the Wood Elf catcher- and I'd also consider the goblin (orc team), Slann, and the Amazon catcher as being brought into the argument.

Suggestion 2 (and here is where I need the flame shield) - Bring all catchers down to strength 2. I think catchers should be just that, fast but fragile scoring machines.

I agree, especially with the bolded part. And I think that since it only effects two rosters (High Elf and Pro Elf) it might be easy to balance- in both cases you could probably just give them both Dodge and drop the price 20k and you'd be set. Of course the High Elf catcher would look just like a worse version of the Wood Elf catcher then!

Pro Elves in particular would really benefit from the extra 80k in TV they would gain, and the starting dodge. With Dauntless now a normal access skill, you can still build a fairly reliable blitzer anyway.

Nice house rule.

[bjorn9486]

I think you missed the Wood Elf catcher- and I'd also consider the goblin (orc team), Slann, and the Amazon catcher as being brought into the argument.

Your right about the Woodelf and Slann catcher and I will fix that in a second. The goblin has stunty which has already been discussed and that plus ST 2 I don't see as much a problem, but I've also never played against an orc team that took a goblin and had success. The Amazon catcher is only MV 6, and while I agree they should be brought down to ST 2 as well, I think their MV should be increased to reflect this, but I'm not qualified to even suggest what it should be because I've never played or played against Amazon.

[Master Wang]

Opening a can of worms here bjorn9486.

Amazons- strength access

Skaven - strength access + big guy

Humans - same

Wood elves - tree, amazing linemen, most broken player (dancer)
Slann - strength access + big guy

High Elves - none of the above, catchers to Str 2...oh dear

Pro Elves - none of the above (though their blitzer is good) + very average linemen, catchers to str 2, less defensive turnovers, taking lots more hits, team dies even more than now, oh dear

I haven't thought that through much, but the weakening of those two teams' defences would be pretty harsh. I'm definitely in the raise the human catcher strength boat. I'd take all 4 then. Though I admit having 8 blitzers on the pitch would be taking the piss a little.

[bjorn9486]

Opening a can of worms here bjorn9486.

Yeah, that is fine, I can take it.

I'm definitely in the raise the human catcher strength boat. I'd take all 4 then. Though I admit having 8 blitzers on the pitch would be taking the piss a little.

Exactly, I would love ST 3 catchers, but then making them into blitzers would be extremely easy as well. Maybe not guard + MB + Stand Firm blitzers, but they would get block easy enough, and coupled with dodge you have a perfect mini-blitzer.

But IMHO I don't think it fits the fluff that elves are somehow stronger than humans. More agile, yes! but not stronger, thus the reduction across the board in strength.

[Jural]

0-4 blitzers for both teams, problem solved! But honestly, the Pro Elves may be OK as is- that much TV reduction will make them hard to beat, Dodge + NoS on AG 4 is ridiculous at any Strength, especially for a starting piece!

[SillySod]

Bjorn, while your idea may have merit.... it does absolutely nothing to fix the current problem.

You would be making humans a better team by nerfing teams which are overperforming the humans. All you would do is make wood elves, dwarfs, and other great teams look even more powerful.

I dont think that a direct comparison between the catchers of different races is all that useful. Its not as if all the races have catchers to compare and they all perform different roles anyway. Personally I like the differences between the catchers, they give their teams alot of flavour.

I see human catchers as a one trick pony; they are used to score quickly.

I think that this is the main problem and the reason most teams dont take very many. All the other catchers tend to be useful to have on the pitch on defence or long grinding offences. Human catchers are a bit of a gamble in those circumstances because they are so easy to hit and so fragile while not actually being especially great at running around being annoying.

Scoring quickly tends to be a once a game occurance too so you dont expect your catchers to see alot of time on the pitch.

[stormmaster1]

most players need to be used on offence and defence. ST2 seriously weakens usefullness on defence most. most elven catchers can be used/developed as extra blitzers with the st3.

for humans, developing MA8 ST3 dodge players with easy access to ag skills would radically alter the team giving them a agile blitzer type aswell as a bashy blitzer type. imo a big big change and a boost. don't know if too strong or just the boost they need.

[purdindas]

I don't know about you guys but I see human catcher being victimised on the pitch all the time. They are the weak link and normally get taken off the field first due to injury. If humans have less players on the pitch than the opposition they can really struggle. Another more durable Strength 3 Armour 8 player on the pitch instead seems much more appealing to me especially with the tendancy towards long grinding plays these days. I would pay 90k for them if they were ST 3. I'd probably take all 4 of them on my roster. I would probably play humans more often if it wasn't for the catchers.

Finally I'd like to say I know it's only a game and all that but a human being weedier than an elf really annoys me. It just shouldn't be.

[Ikterus]

Catchers should be 60K (and Blitzers 80K). That way the Human team can stack up on numbers, re-rolls and inducements. That is the Human style of play IMO : well equipped, good resources, decent players but nothing outstanding.

+1

Well put. That's exactly what Human teams are about.