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 Post subject: Why are Human Catchers 70K?
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:55 pm 
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Why are Human Catchers 70K?

i) The cost formula brings them out at 60K (Catch is a 10K skill).

ii) They are clearly not worth that in relation to similar players:

A High Elf Catcher is 10K more but gets +1 ST and +1AG and loses Dodge. If the same statline were to be created via Improvements, the Human would cost 60K more.

A Gutter Runner is 10K more but gets +1 MA and +1AG and loses Catch. If the same statline were to be created via Improvements, the Human would cost 40K more.

A Pro Elf Catcher is 30K more but gets +1 ST, +1 AG and NoS and loses Dodge. If the same statline were to be created via Improvements, the Human would cost 50K more.

iii) They are clearly not overcosted for the sake of team balance as Humans underperform in just about all data samples, hovering at about a 45% win rate.

iv) Everybody always complains that Catchers aren't good enough and they don't take them. I personally think they fill a useful role, but cost too much in doing so.

v) Humans need a boost since their win rate in no way reflects the fact that in the fluff they are the most successful race. The teams that come in the box should also be fairly effective IMO since that is more likely to maintain the interest of new players.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:11 am 
Legend
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I'll bite....

And please add...

Why do Wights cost 90k compared to Orc Blitzers at 70k?!

Also, why do Tomb Guardians only cost 100k?!!! Give 'em a normal, 20k skill (Mighty Blow) and they cost the same as a Mummy but are 1 MA FASTER! (Bollocks if you say "Decay on an AV9 is compensation")

Meh, bump Human Catchers to 3 St and they'll be proper pains....

But while you're at it.... :-?

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:52 am 
Legend
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Orc blitzers cost 80k, not 70k, right?

I think the real answer is that if you consider the original rosters (Skaven, Dark Elf, High Elf, Dwarf, Human, Orc, Goblin, Halfling, Chaos, as I recall) the human catcher really is a 70k piece! Remember, there were no trolls, ogres, rat ogres, etc (as I recall, again) or mummies. Movement 8 alone and agility access were more important, or at least it felt that way.

As rosters began being introduced (next was Undead, Wood Elf, Chaos Dwarf, I think, with Pro Elf, Khemri, Necromantic, Lizardman, Norse, Amazon, Nurgle, Ogre, Vampire, Slann, Pact, Underworld coming much later) the human catcher loses some of it's appeal and apppears more ordinary.

But maybe the question Joe is really asking is this- Why are human catchers STILL cost at 70k? Personally, I don't know. Humans have an "Aren't broken, don't fix 'em" sign permanently attached, it seems.


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:17 am 
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Back when Regen was 2+, the Wight was properly costed.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:24 am 
Legend
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I'm sorry... Orc Blitzers ARE 80k... I was ditzin'.... :oops:

And, maybe back when you could have 4 of them (right?) AND they were regen 2+... maybe then they were worth 90k....

I think there's a certain synergy in having four catchers.... Makes for a long game if you don't get them out of the way quickly.... Still don't know that they're worth their coin....

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:02 am 
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Shame these things won't be alterable for a very long time. The catchers, for me, are the last buy on my human team. Strength 3 seems like the most appropriate fix - why are two of the elven catchers stronger?

As for wights. Some change would be nice. They're a human lineman with Block and Regen. But Regen is a horrible lottery that sees me holding my breath every time on of my necro positionals (except ghouls) falls over.


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:33 am 
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The Diggster wrote:
Also, why do Tomb Guardians only cost 100k?!!! Give 'em a normal, 20k skill (Mighty Blow) and they cost the same as a Mummy but are 1 MA FASTER! (Bollocks if you say "Decay on an AV9 is compensation")
They are a brand new statline and are so still in flux. Decay is compensation since TGs do get injured. I play a lot of Undead and Khemri and they just do. Raising the chance of permanent injury or death from 33% to 55% is significant. Especially when there are plenty of factors in the game that negate their AV : throw a rock, crowd surfs, Claw, MB. Human catchers have been the wrong price for over a decade.

Wights are explainable by reasons i) and iii) - the formula and they are overcosted for team balance. The formula brings them out at 90K. Also, Undead have proven to be statistically the best team over 10 years or so, and so no reduction can really be justifiable. They are on the Necro team too of course, but then they were great in LRB4 and are being fixed now for LRB6.

Jural wrote:
I think the real answer is that if you consider the original rosters (Skaven, Dark Elf, High Elf, Dwarf, Human, Orc, Goblin, Halfling, Chaos, as I recall) the human catcher really is a 70k piece! Remember, there were no trolls, ogres, rat ogres, etc (as I recall, again) or mummies. Movement 8 alone and agility access were more important, or at least it felt that way.
It's an interesting argument. But then the players I compared them to in price (GR and HE catcher) were both created at the same time. So I don't see how it holds much water.

Master Wang wrote:
Shame these things won't be alterable for a very long time. The catchers, for me, are the last buy on my human team. Strength 3 seems like the most appropriate fix - why are two of the elven catchers stronger?
Indeed, a great shame. I know a lot of people say make Human Catchers ST3. But for me that takes the fun out of them. I really, really like the roster just as it is. But it isn't competitive. Catchers should be 60K (and Blitzers 80K). That way the Human team can stack up on numbers, re-rolls and inducements. That is the Human style of play IMO : well equipped, good resources, decent players but nothing outstanding.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:03 am 
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Strength increase would be too much. What would you reckon to sure feet on them Joe? This (for me) would "ag up" the Human team as they are the ultimate utility team (in that they do the opposite of the team they're playing: Bash ag teams and ag bash teams) and generally do better as a bashy team vs the ag teams.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:13 am 
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It might work. Giving them another skill for free is definitely an option. Fend is an alternative along the same lines ... stops Tackle Dwarfs etc mincing in after them and negating their Dodge when they try to run away (should they survive the block). I think someone once mentioned Diving Catch, although given the new +1 rule I think that seems a little too good/obvious.

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:50 am 
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there is an alternative human roster here:
http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/vie ... hp?t=28447

in discussion, but the idea are good and maybe if you run a local league you can use this instead of the default human roster


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:56 am 
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Aren't they AV7 as well? ST2 AG3 AV7 LOL - no thanks.

A blind man on a galloping horse can see where the problem is.

I don't know what happened for LRB6, but I think they will regret not looking at the Humans.

Perhaps they thought that Humans Win Ratio was low because 'noobs' play them? Or 'experienced' coaches shy away from them cause their boring.

Whatever it is they are underpowered for their fluff - if not their supposed Tier.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:04 am 
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Grogmir wrote:
Perhaps they thought that Humans Win Ratio was low because 'noobs' play them? Or 'experienced' coaches shy away from them cause their boring.
That seems to be the excuse for not changing them. They seem to always just scrape into the 45-55% bracket, which IMO screams changes are necessary since I'd like them to be near the top of that bracket, and the fluff suggests they should be. But hey ho.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:09 am 
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I think a block/sure hands/sure feet Catcher is awesome on the human team- with MV 7 blitzers it makes getting the ball off the catcher extremely difficult.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:33 am 
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I think the question is: would people take more catchers if they were 60k? Personally I think the answer is no. This would be equivalent to a tiny team value bonus.... I'd much rather see something which made the catchers better without losing their character (so +ST is right out).

That said, I dont think humans really need a boost. They are already a fine although much under-rated team.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:04 am 
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I've said it before but I'll say it again. ST 2 and Av 7 is a recipe for disaster. This coupled with 70k cost makes it very hard for me to want to purchase them. I agree they are overcosted for what they are.

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