Alternative Humans

[Rhyoth]

Hmmm... what about 130k Ogres to go along with AV8 Catchers? That would allow 1M to look like: 1 Ogre, 4 Blitzers, 3 (Thrower/Catcher)s, 3 Linemen and 3 TRRs, a handsome team by any means. And with AV8 Catchers, they'll have decent skill memory at the high levels.

That's a really nice starting roster. Maybe in 20 years for LRB 7.0... I like that more than the STR 3 catchers.

60 k Catchers allow the same starting roster, without the following problems :
a) you don't need to change the Ogre's Roster as well (not a big deal though)
b) you don't need to "lose your soul", giving Av8 to a model that, "fluffwise", is meant to be fragile and expendable, just for a matter of game balance (while you still have more adequate options).

Now, a small boost to the catcher (10k discount or Sure Feet for free) is what you need if you just want to increase the performance of the team.

However, it was not the main purpose of this thread : the real goal we were looking for was to change the "gameplay" of humans, in order to give them a more "bashy" roster.

Therefore, the only option we have (for now) to achieve this goal, without adding new minis, is to give human a St 3 Catchers (IMHO, Humans really deserve to have at least 2 players with both ST 3 AND access to Ag skills)

Of course, this boost is huge, and may call for nerf of a different kind (the speed of the roster is then the most obvious target)

[SillySod]

I thought we were trying to improve the performance of humans at high TVs?

Its not as if they struggle at low TVs - actually they are something of a powerhouse.

[EastCoast]

60 k Catchers allow the same starting roster, without the following problems :
a) you don't need to change the Ogre's Roster as well (not a big deal though)
b) you don't need to "lose your soul", giving Av8 to a model that, "fluffwise", is meant to be fragile and expendable, just for a matter of game balance (while you still have more adequate options).

Now, a small boost to the catcher (10k discount or Sure Feet for free) is what you need if you just want to increase the performance of the team.

However, it was not the main purpose of this thread : the real goal we were looking for was to change the "gameplay" of humans, in order to give them a more "bashy" roster.

Therefore, the only option we have (for now) to achieve this goal, without adding new minis, is to give human a St 3 Catchers (IMHO, Humans really deserve to have at least 2 players with both ST 3 AND access to Ag skills)

Of course, this boost is huge, and may call for nerf of a different kind (the speed of the roster is then the most obvious target)

First of all, I have not read anything "fluffwise" that describes human catchers as expendable and inexpensive. Feel free to direct me to the appropriate fluff.

Second of all, AV8 catchers would make humans coaches more likely to get their catchers in the scrum which can in fact make them more bashy. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Here's the LRB description of catchers:
Catchers are the opposite of Blockers. Lightly armoured and
very agile, they can’t afford to get into fights. In the open,
however, they are unmatched – and nobody is better at catching
the ball. Catchers specialize in waiting near the End Zone for
that all-important touchdown pass to come sailing in out of the
blue. The only problem in being a Catcher is if someone should
catch you!

Lightly armored (supports AV7) very Agile (indicates AG 4) is more appropriate "fluffwise", after all Chaos Warriors are as agile as human catchers.

If you want to keep human catchers at AG 3, that's cool, but it my opinion you should compensate them on the weakness portion and give them AV 8. That's hardly selling one's soul in my opinion, but some people have differing view points.

[Rhyoth]

(...)
Here's the LRB description of catchers :

Catchers are the opposite of Blockers. Lightly armoured and
very agile, they can’t afford to get into fights (...)

How could that sentence not be enough to convince you ?

note : yes, Ag 4 Catchers make sense, but it seems too good for the current roster (remenber Humans are "Jack-of-all-trades, master of none") : leave AG 4 to the Elves, they pay a huge price for this privilege. Besides, with Dodge and Catch, plus AG skill access, these guys are still definitely more agile than a Chaos Warrior.

I thought we were trying to improve the performance of humans at high TVs?

Its not as if they struggle at low TVs - actually they are something of a powerhouse.

By the way i see it, 60k Catchers is mostly a boost for high TV issues, since :
_ it's easier to replace dead catchers
_ it becomes more valuable to hire all 4 catchers, (thus starting the training of the rookie catcher before the death of the guy he is meant to replace)

Sure it also gives Humans an advantage for the first 3-4 games, but i am not sure that it is a really big deal (at least for League play, but it could be more problematic in Tournaments...)

[Joemanji]

Humans are extremely weak in tournaments, so that wouldn't be a problem.

[mattgslater]

60k Catchers would get me starting one as opposed to zero, but wouldn't convince me to get all four: I'd still peak out at three. At high levels it's 30k±10k of inducement value, nothing more. AV8 Catchers, OTOH, are much better at high levels, and more-or-less the same to start. No, they're not amazingly fragile, but they can't afford to get into fights, because they're ST2. So what? High Elf Catchers are fragile, but they can afford to get into fights from time to time, especially once they get Blodge. Who cares about how perfectly a single clause of general fluff with no attendant mechanic applies to one guy in a sea of players?

[Joemanji]

I do. It says on page 4 of the rulebook that Catchers are lightly armoured. Ergo AV7.

Catchers are very valuable to a Human team. Their starting MA8 and Dodge is invaluable to maximise the Human team's greatest asset, their speed. They are just overpriced. As I've said many times, Catchers should be 60K, Blitzers 80K. That's 60-70K off most advanced teams. This has a number of benefits in terms of Inducements and Spiralling Expenses, and helps Human teams win a human way ... organisation. I've played Humans a lot and TV bloat at high levels is a massive problem, as is the cost of buying back players that struggle in a high-TV environment. This is a huge issue IMO - you can buy back a Black Orc or Gutter Runner and he is useful from game one. A Human Catcher (and even Blitzer) is just meat in the grinder against a developed bash team, and ineffective against a developed agile team.

[EastCoast]

I do. It says on page 4 of the rulebook that Catchers are lightly armoured. Ergo AV7.

Right, but it also says they are very agile in the same sentence. I don't want to discount the remainder of your post, because I'm ok with Human catchers being AG3, I just don't see how AV8 hurts since in theory a human catcher should be able to wear slightly heaveer armor (stronger than elves), but not without losing their AG (AG3) and losing some ST (Human but still ST2) from trucking around the extra armor.

I don't think cheaper catchers is a bad idea in and of itself, like I said more than one way to skin a cat. I just think AV8 is within reason and improves the long term prospects of the human team. Lower replacement costs would be an improvement too, the AV8 catcher just appeals to me more.

[mattgslater]

Blitzers 80K.

This idea keeps me up at night. Human Blitzers are not quite the value of Orc Blitzers, no, but they're a little touch better at the common elements of the two positions' roles. Besides, compare the Throwers for a second! And the TRRs are different prices. Not to mention that 6/3/3/8 is an average guy, while 5/3/3/9 is a durable piece of s**t. Yet in the same breath I'll tell you Orcs are a better team at virtually all phases of development.

He's also the same price as an Amazon Blitzer. Tell me, with a straight face, if you got the choice on a Norseman to take either both +AV and +MA, or just Dodge, that you'd take Dodge. 'Cause I wouldn't.

And then there's the Rat. Same profile. 0-4 is roughly a value wash for M on doubles. There's also Mr. Wight, with -1 MA vs. Regenerate.

Sorry to break it to you, but the only reasonable cost for the Human Blitzer is 90k. Whatever the problem is, even if it's that, we need to look elsewhere for a fix. Besides, I don't think that's the problem. The TRRs and Throwers sort of make up for the other mediocre positional deals: the problem isn't really the bargains. Lowering prices will just make the team look a little better before it falls off the cliff, peaking maybe one game earlier. The problem is that the skill players aren't tough enough. Making them cheaper isn't going to change that.

I do. It says on page 4 of the rulebook that Catchers are lightly armoured.

That's a great argument for why a Catcher should have an AV no greater than the players around him. The fluff text you're citing doesn't give an Armour Value for the player. But I agree that AV9 would be inappropriate. He also shouldn't have S skill access. Just like his being "very agile" indicates that his AG score shouldn't be less than 3, and he should have A access. After all, being ST2 feels like being lightly-armored, because others will block you more if you give them a chance.

[Joemanji]

I hate to break it to you, but players are costed a) for their stats and b) in context for the team. Human Blitzers are overcosted in both respects. Have you played Humans in a developed league? Of course, sorry, you've played everything. Because stumping up 90K to replace a player with AG3, ST3, AV8 is a hard bullet to bite when you know everyone has either MB or Blodge.

That's a great argument for why a Catcher should have an AV no greater than the players around him. The fluff text you're citing doesn't give an Armour Value for the player. But I agree that AV9 would be inappropriate.

What sort of semantic nonsense are you talking here? Lightly means "equal to but not less than"? Dictionary disagrees - "lightly: to only a small amount or degree".

[mattgslater]

I'm saying that the term "lightly armoured" is pretty vague, that's all. Just like "very agile" and unable to "afford" to get into fights.

I agree that replacing dead players sucks, and replacing dead 90k players sucks worse. That's not an argument for making them 80k. Yes, I've run Humans in league formats. No, I haven't played more than 1-4 games with about half the team races, but Humans, I have some experience with. I agree that they're a bit fragile for their mobility. I just don't think the problem is that Blitzers are too expensive. I used to think this, but truth be told that Blitzer in a vacuum is a heck of a player. That he underperforms on his team says more about the guys around him than about his relative cost-effectiveness. Namely, the Catcher isn't good enough to justify his cost.

[Xadie]

Hey Guys, may I enter the conversation with that line-up:

0-16 Linemen 6338 G-ASP 50k

0-2 Throwers 6338 Accurate, Sure Hands GP-AS 70k //Accurate works well with the cheap rerolls for humans

0-4 Catchers 7337 Catch Dodge GA-SP 80k
//The Catcher never performed satisfying in the human team, making them harder to knock over insures that a former liability (but somewhat of a necessity) becomes a asset. Now going from Str2 to Str3 is a HUGE improvement. -1MV +10K is a great Trade-Off. Though I don't see a reason to raise their AV to 8. From Lvl2 on they are quick Blodging St3 players for just 80k, which is just great. AV 8 would take it too far.

0-4 Blitzer 7338 Block Stand Firm GS-AP 90k
// would make them more cost efficient, as other race Blitzers with same costs come with extras that the human blitzer lacks. It definitly helps to lay tacklezones on enemy ball carriers (which is what Blitzers try to do next to blitzing)

0-1 Ogre 5529 unchanged S-GAP 140k

So what do you think about that?

[Kort]

Only the Catchers are relatively weak in the Human lineup. Throwers and Blitzers are already quite good (The latter are slightly overpriced, but not by a lot), they do not need to get a boost to become competitive. Your modifications will probably make the Human team too good at low TV.

I would rather support a modification to the Human roster to make it better at high TV. My idea would be to allow a developed team to build up to 6 blitzer-like players. To do that, I would suggest 2 approaches:
1) Make the Catcher 7337, but make its quantity 0-2.
2) Make the Blitzer quantity 0-6.

[Xadie]

After lot of thinking and comparing, i think keeping the change to

1) Make the Catcher 7337, but make its quantity 0-2.

is more belanced then my full range of suggestions. I admit, i went a little bit over top.

[Patchwork]

0-4 Catchers 7337 Catch Dodge GA-SP 80k
//The Catcher never performed satisfying in the human team, making them harder to knock over insures that a former liability (but somewhat of a necessity) becomes a asset. Now going from Str2 to Str3 is a HUGE improvement. -1MV +10K is a great Trade-Off. Though I don't see a reason to raise their AV to 8. From Lvl2 on they are quick Blodging St3 players for just 80k, which is just great. AV 8 would take it too far.

0-4 Blitzer 7338 Block Stand Firm GS-AP 90k
// would make them more cost efficient, as other race Blitzers with same costs come with extras that the human blitzer lacks. It definitly helps to lay tacklezones on enemy ball carriers (which is what Blitzers try to do next to blitzing)

That's a combo that just shouldn't be allowed. It's giving the human roster 8 blitzers, with the advantage that half of them get strength skills on normal rolls and the other half get agility and even better, half of them can take wrestle of their first skill to be wrestle and dodgers. If the catchers had to be changed like that (and I'd prefer they weren't), either them or the blitzers would need to drop to 0-2.