Alternative Amazons

[DoubleSkulls]

My idea is to make 'zons the AG3 passing team. I've done this by giving the catch/throwers starting skills that really favour passing, and long passing the team is really encouraged to throw the ball. I also wanted to break their dependency on widespread dodge and stop the "nemesis" 'zon vs Dwarf problem.

I've taken the human catcher and given them diving catch instead. DC because it only works for passes - so better for long passing, but less benefical for a running game.

The throwers then get safe throw to augment pass. That means they have a "safe" long passing option.

The blitzers I've taken the human one, swapped block for wrestle and given them AG access. Wrestle is good because it weakens them as alternative ball carriers for the running game - but actually making them better at making holes for the catchers to run through.

Linewomen are lifted from the amazonian team since I think that's probably the best option around this player type I've seen.

So you end up with:

0-16 Linewomen 6337 Fend GA-SP 50k
0-4 Catchers 8237 Diving Catch, Dodge GA-SP 70k
0-2 Throwers 6337 Hail Mary Pass, Safe Throw, Pass GAP-S 70k
0-4 Blitzers 7338 Wrestle GAS/P 90k

Rerolls 50k.

Catchers - would 0-4 be better? Is this a 80k position?
Throwers - 60k seems too cheap, 70k would be either MA7 or Av8. I'd be happy to swap Pass for Accurate or even Strong Arm

I'm concerned it might be a bit too soft and easy to beat up without as much dodge as the 'zon or 'zonions. Hopefully the universal Ag access and good passing game would compensate.

[Edited post to ensure first post has latest lineup]

[Jural]

Personal Opinions here-

1) A "Passing team" should have 0-4 catchers.

2) Safe Throw is already on the High Elf Passer, I would prefer another skill. Nerves of Steel would be awesome, Fend would be acceptable too, as would Dodge or Side Step. An Accurate Nerves of Steel passer would be pretty fresh.

3) I dislike Wrestle blitzers. Amazons are hard hitters, not wrestlers! Blitzers blitz and should have block, although the Slann blitzer works Ok without it. I recommend going with Tackle or Juggernaut if you are aiming to not use block. Tackle turns them into elf hunters and locks down opposition trying to get into your backfield (wardancers?) Juggernaut allows them to really open up holes- even with Stand Firm stacked against them.

[SillySod]

0-4 catchers seems much more interesting than two if you want it to be throwing themed. We already know from the human roster that they will rarely all get fielded on the same drive anyway. Other than that the catchers look good.

How about dropping a move on the blitzers in exchange for fend? That keeps the theme of the team strong and lets you make the other players a little faster. That would leave blitzers at...
0-4 Blitzers 6 3 3 8 wrestle, fend GAS/P 90k

The throwers look ok but pretty "meh" for something which is supposed to be on a specialised throwing team. How about adding a move to bring them on par with the (superb ) skaven throwers? I'd probably switch out safe throw for hail mary pass - that way they can use their big movement and diving catch to threaten either a short passing play or a massive one. The team feels like it needs a little extra to keep the opponent off balance, hail mary pass would force most teams to spread a little more than is comfortable even on defence (hail mary pass is a cruel defensive skill... 2+ and its away regardless of tz). That would leave them at...
0-2 Throwers 7 3 3 7 GAP/S 70k

The linemen look reasonable as long as the rest of the team can really pull their weight. Potentially the team might have problems developing or lasting for a full drive though. If this happens then I'd bump them up to 60k and av8.

I suspect that the team will end up using its high move and formation disruption tactics to keep the opponent off balance. Seems interesting enough.

[besters]

I would agree that 4 catchers should be the option, if it is to replace the human team with a throwing game.

On this basis I would suggest giving the throwers Sure hands as well as Pass and Safe Throw and making them 70k. I think this would give better balance to the team.

I have played against the hail mary pass, it can be very effective against a slow team and I wouldn't put this in a starting roster.

I would prefer block on the blitzer, as better on defense and give wrestle instead of fend to the linewomen. Basicly something to help them stay on the pitch as with current dodge or the block for Norse lineman.

This would then be an interesting version of the Human roster, then back to the debate on how to change that!

[DoubleSkulls]

0-4 catchers it is.

I don't want to give too many skills to positions. I'd rather let them develop more (actually I think this is a problem with a lot of home grown teams in that too many skills are given to starting players).

Funnily enough I put Safe Throw in because of the experimental rule - making it a great skill for chucking long bombs. Pass compliments that so that the throwers are good at throwing a long way without turning over - and DC catchers mean you'll often take the inaccurate throw. I considered different skill to pass. NoS, Strong Arm or Accurate were contenders, but none of them felt any better than Pass. Maybe it would be better to give another passing related skill and make them 70k. NoS actually feels interesting. That makes them the "no fumble" throwers.

I'm not a big fan of HMP, although this team would probably take it early on on one thrower anyway. Also I'm pretty sure I don't want to give them useful running skills.

Wrestle is very deliberately chosen over block on the blitzers. For me 'zons should never have been, nor shouldn't be hard hitters. For me it feels more like a female BBers skill - nimble & able to floor your opponent without necessarily hurting them as much. I also think its a better blitzer skill. Just because all the other blitzers start with block doesn't make it the right choice. They could probably get Fend or Jump Up at no additional cost.

Adding fend for -MA seems okay, but I want this to be a fast lightly armoured team and only a few players over MA6 doesn't feel like that to me. I'd also be concerned about dropping to Av7 because I think this team will suffer from churn anyway.

[Joemanji]

0-16 Linewomen 6337 Fend GA-SP 50k
0-2 Catchers 8237 Diving Catch, Dodge GA-SP 70k
0-2 Throwers 6337 Safe Throw, Pass GAP-S 60k
0-4 Blitzers 7338 Wrestle GAS/P 90k

Rerolls 50k.

I like it. I liked the Jump Up roster just as much though.

0-4 Catchers is essential with ST2 & AV7 - you'll need replacements.

Agility access is a must on all players for this style, the lack is why Humans get in trouble at high TVs.

I like the Wrestle idea, but they perhaps should be 80K. A team like this can't afford expensive players with the expected high turnover. Human Blitzers should be 80K anyway, and arguably Block is better (more SPPs etc). Also, if you want to play a passing game, if you are going to have expensive players you might as well play High Elves.

The Catchers are fine at 70K.

Throwers look fun. Safe Throw is cool for the long passing threat. I'd probably keep Pass. The only thing to swap it for would be NoS perhaps, and that is pretty marginal IMO. MA7 on them might be worth considering though. 60K is the right price as they are though.

[SierraKiloBravo]

Personal Opinions here-

1) A "Passing team" should have 0-4 catchers.

2) Safe Throw is already on the High Elf Passer, I would prefer another skill. Nerves of Steel would be awesome, Fend would be acceptable too, as would Dodge or Side Step. An Accurate Nerves of Steel passer would be pretty fresh.

3) I dislike Wrestle blitzers. Amazons are hard hitters, not wrestlers! Blitzers blitz and should have block, although the Slann blitzer works Ok without it. I recommend going with Tackle or Juggernaut if you are aiming to not use block. Tackle turns them into elf hunters and locks down opposition trying to get into your backfield (wardancers?) Juggernaut allows them to really open up holes- even with Stand Firm stacked against them.

Yeah, but I think you're confusing what Amazons are in LRB versus what he wants Amazons to be. If they're a team with 0-4 catchers and AV7, then they're largely like a low AG elf team. If that's the case, then their goal would be to do anything possible to get the ball and make the long pass, sort of like wood elves but less reliable due to the -AG. Wrestle blitzers support this. At 16 SPP at least one blitzer has tackle / strip ball and then the ball is almost always coming out.

I like this roster a LOT. It makes much more sense to me than the current Amazon roster and adds some good variety.

[prisma]

All in all pointing in the direction of a very fine roster !
I think I'd give them a boost (I wonder wether they are already competitive).

Especially the throwers lack that extra skill / MA that a passing team needs. (And I'd rather like the combo 'accurate - safe throw'.)

Maybe I'd at least think about jump-up on linos (instead of fend) and/or on blitzers.
I wouldn't like AV 8 on the blitzers anyway - being as hard as human blitzers, harder than norse berzerkers I think 7 3 3 7 wrestle, jump-up (or sidestep), 80k is the way to go for them.

[stashman]

So you end up with:

0-16 Linewomen 6337 Fend GA-SP 50k
0-2 Catchers 8237 Diving Catch, Dodge GA-SP 70k
0-2 Throwers 6337 Safe Throw, Pass GAP-S 60k
0-4 Blitzers 7338 Wrestle GAS/P 90k

Rerolls 50k.

This looks good and fun, sadly it may be too late for experimental

I would like this Thrower instead:
0-2 Throwers 6337 Accurate (or Strong Arm), Pass, Hail Mary GAP-S 70k

Accurate (or Strong Arm): +1 to inspire the passing game
Pass: For the reroll
Hail Mary: To work with Diving Catch

Make it 0-4 Catchers

Maybe redo Blitzers to 7337 Block, Fend 90K

[Jural]

OK... I wanted to add two things:

1) I like this direction Ian. (I moved straight to critiquing what I didn't like!)

2) You know what would be a great skill on the thrower? Hail Mary Pass. Yes it's a niche skill, but I like it. Accurate Hail Mary Pass is a great combo... But is Diving Catch, Hail Mary Pass too much as starting skills on a roster?

I just noticed Stashman wrote the same thing above!

[SierraKiloBravo]

A few thoughts:

For durability reasons, I think the blitzers have to be AV8. They don't have the Block / Dodge protection that a Wardancer has or the high AV and Block protection that a Human or Orc blitzer has. The GAS access more than justifies the 90k price tag. Wrestle / Tackle / Strip Ball / Guard seems like the standard build.

What about making the throwers MA7, take away Pass and give them Accurate / HMP? Comparing 7337 Accurate / HMP to a Human Thrower, seems to allow more success on the deep pass, but takes away the rerolls built in to Pass / Sure Hands. As a result, makes me think that the give and take of those two justifies both being 70k positions. Both positions are good at throwing the ball, but it seems like the 7337 thrower would be more successful at throwing the deep ball with Accurate and beyond Long Bomb with HMP, although it's still a risky proposition. I'm not sure of this, though, as the math escapes me.

Also, giving the Thrower Accurate from the beginning effectively makes him AG4 at throwing, which will encourage throwing, which is what Ian wants to do.

Imagine the catchers at 16 SPPs. Diving Catch, Dodge, Sidestep, Fend. That's a bitch to mark without a tackler and some help. Turn two into defensive catchers with Diving Catch, Dodge, Block, Pass Block. Take NoS on doubles and don't look back.

Just some random thoughts.

[DoubleSkulls]

Okay, so how about this?

0-16 Linewomen 6337 Fend GA-SP 50k
0-4 Catchers 8237 Diving Catch, Dodge GA-SP 70k
0-2 Throwers 6337 Safe Throw, Pass GAP-S 60k
0-4 Blitzers 7338 Wrestle GAS/P 80k

Rerolls 50k.

I think HMP will be an early skill pick on the throwers and another skill doesn't feel like its adding much IMO - other than giving a free skill.

[prisma]

On throwers, I'd favor accurate over pass - it interacts fine with safethrow (choosing not to use it, avoiding an inaccurate pass).

I'm still against AV 8 blitzers - no need to make the ladies tougher than norse berserkers IMO.
I'd rather see

7 3 3 7 wrestle, jump-up

or

7 3 3 7 wrestle, sidestep

[Jural]

7 3 3 7 Wrestle Side Step would be too much, but I like 7 3 3 7 Wrestle Fend. I agree with keeping AV 8 off the squad, I hadn't seen that before.

I really think Safe Throw is encroaching on High Elf territory, and like Accurate over Pass as well. Maybe something like Dodge or Side Step to give them an elusive quality? I still like Nerves of Steel better. In my mind, Nerves of Steel or Hail Mary Pass is what puts "interesting" into this roster. It's the icing on the cake, so to speak. Safe Throw works the same way, but I think the icing isn't as sweet!

[Jural]

7 3 3 7 Wrestle Side Step would be too much, but I like 7 3 3 7 Wrestle Fend. I agree with keeping AV 8 off the squad, I hadn't seen that before.

I really think Safe Throw is encroaching on High Elf territory, and like Accurate over Pass as well. Maybe something like Dodge or Side Step to give them an elusive quality? I still like Nerves of Steel better. In my mind, Nerves of Steel or Hail Mary Pass is what puts "interesting" into this roster. It's the icing on the cake, so to speak. Safe Throw works the same way, but I think the icing isn't as sweet!