Register    Login    Forum    FAQ

Board index » Blood Bowl » House Rules forum




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:58 pm 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 5117
Location: Copenhagen
Hi all,
when the Daemons of Khorne roster came out not everyone was thrilled.
I know about all the restrictions laid on the designers and I think they created a fun roster with what they had available.
Playable and interesting as the roster is - there are (to me at least) some jarring fluff issues, which makes the roster kind of hard to stomach.

I do like the 2 main themes of "too much frenzy" and "super monster big guy".
But the roster lacks some "Khorne killy". And it needs to match the fluff better.

Rather than build a new team from scratch, this is my shot at repairing the team while makes a minimum of actual changes.
My list of gripes are:

1. P access on the lineman makes no sense. Even if the Pact marauder has it. Khorne is not the team to have the option to build a passing game. More than anything it feels like a vehicle for Leader. I guess one of the sticky fluff issues is whether Linemen need to have S-access. To my mind it would be Khornate, by I can live without it on these low level minions.
2. The Herald doesn't have Regeneration. If daemons (and bloodletters!) have regeneration, then so should a Herald. I mean, it's a bigger bloodletter.
3. The Bloodletter is just way too puny. I understand the argument that without the daemonic sword, the Bloodletter might become whimpy. I'm just not buing it.
4. I understand the need to have something without Frenzy on the roster. Or at least something that Blocks more reliably than ST3 frenzy. But that the Bloodletter is the player without Frenzy makes no sense.
5. Finally - the statline of the Thirster bears no semblance to what a Thirster is. It shouldn't be something about as strong as an Ogre. Bloodthirsters destroy entire teams. Or cities for that matter. Best keep them off the BB pitch.

With that in mind, and with the policy of making as few changes as possible, this is what I came up with:
0-16 60K Lineman 6338 Frenzy G (no P)
0-2 90K Khorngor 6338 Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut - GS
0-2 120K Bloodletters 6418 Frenzy, Claw, Regen - GS
0-1 180K Herald 6519 Frenzy, Claw, Regen, Horns, Juggernaut + Loner, Wild Animal - S

Is this a better fluff fit?
Is it balanced?

Cheers
Martin

_________________
Narrow Tier BB? http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm
Or just visit http://www.plasmoids.dk instead


Last edited by plasmoid on Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:31 pm 
Da Spammer
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:04 pm
Posts: 23576
Location: Fundamentaling for the BB Illuminati
plasmoid wrote:
Is this a better fluff fit?

Yes, though it still needs M access.

Quote:
Is it balanced?

No idea.

_________________
SWTC 2017 Stunty Cup winner - never again (until next time!)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:23 am 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:42 pm
Posts: 2099
Location: York
I would have liked the khorne team to be of a similar style to the vampires with the 0-16 being scrubs and the other players as elites but with a serious handicap.

Bloodlust was taken but I think if the bloodletters were really good players but had both frenzy and wild animal that could be fun. The pit fighters could be human linemen with frenzy and g access, they are just the filler so shouldn't be too good. Adding a big guy is fine as well, wild animal is one of the worst traits so give him that.

_________________
My past and current modelling projects showcased on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:40 pm 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 5117
Location: Copenhagen
Hi Spubbbba,
If we were starting from scratch, then I quite like HarvestMouse/Garions idea to use "bloodlust" (with no thralls on the team) as a stand-in for daemonic instability.

....but - what I was trying to do here was not start fromscratch, but to make the best of what we have.
Cheers
Martin

_________________
Narrow Tier BB? http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm
Or just visit http://www.plasmoids.dk instead


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:54 am 
Super Star
Super Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:27 am
Posts: 811
Location: Glasgow
plasmoid wrote:
If we were starting from scratch, then I quite like HarvestMouse/Garions idea to use "bloodlust" (with no thralls on the team) as a stand-in for daemonic instability.

It's a nice idea, working under the restriction of no new skills. However, from a player usability point of view, it's potentially very confusing and would be better replaced by a new skill. (On a roll of 1, player is moved immediately to reserves). I also think that having it cause a Turnover would be excessive, as would be the case with Bloodlust.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:12 pm 
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 1:52 am
Posts: 186
Just thoughts:
Loner & Wild Animal on big guy. I would need a good reason to not see him with them.
5 positionals seems too few. More positionals would make the team too expensive. Even just doubling Khorngors makes the team much more expensive than Chaos.
I guess it is the same number of positionals as Chaos at only a slightly elevated cost. Still odd, but acceptable.

Questions:
M access on doubles?
Apothecary?
reroll's cost?

I think these last questions can be used to balance in playtesting.

_________________
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:44 pm 
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:39 am
Posts: 454
Location: Norsca
Khorne is all about the blood, so you cant have an apo on the team.

This is what I would do (if you want mutations, they can all have it on double):

Khorne Teams
QTY Position Cost MV ST AG AV Skills
0-16 Berserkers 60 6 3 3 8 Frenzy GS/APM
0-6 Khorngors 80 6 3 2 8 Horns, Frenzy, Regeneration GS/AP
0-2 Bloodletter Deamons 130 6 4 2 8 Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration GS/AP

Rerolls: 60k
No Apo,
Starplayers:
MAX SPLEENRIPPER,
LEWDGRIP WHIPARM,
ROXANNA DARKNAIL,
LORD BORAK THE DESPOILER,
GRASHNAK BLACKHOOF,
MORG ’N’ THORG

_________________
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:15 pm 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:20 pm
Posts: 1832
Location: South Wales
Cant speak for balance but think you've nailed it with what was/is wrong with the "current" Khorne team.

Just to be clear, I really like the changes. It makes much more sence from a fluff perspective for all the reasons youve stated in the OP.

As others have said Mutation on the linos and Gors wouldn't go amiss even if if was only on a double, there is already Claw in the team though so not essential for a Khorne team. Perhaps Juggernaut and Frenzy are Khornes blessing here.

_________________
FOUL BOWL Part III SUMMER 2018
FOUL BOWL Part II 24th June
Hitting you where it hurts since 2515
Click here to find out more
Brought to you by FOUL SPAM
The number one Blood Bowl meat substitute


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:24 pm 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:20 pm
Posts: 1832
Location: South Wales
Haven't seen the other idea for a team (Garions/Harvestmouse) so cant say which is better.

The idea about deamon instability sounds interesting. If it were a new skill like discribed about, "on the roll of a 1, player is removed to Reserves box" then that would be the worst neg trait ever. You might want to make whatever player that happens to really powerful to still have a reason to field such a monstrousity. Just an observation.

_________________
FOUL BOWL Part III SUMMER 2018
FOUL BOWL Part II 24th June
Hitting you where it hurts since 2515
Click here to find out more
Brought to you by FOUL SPAM
The number one Blood Bowl meat substitute


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:37 am 
Emerging Star
Emerging Star

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:21 pm
Posts: 419
I could write a 3 page thesis on this one. With my ideas...my/Garion/Zakatan's ideas. My/Garions conversation on the neg trait. My/Whatball's conversations with Kalimar about implementation.

However creating a neg-trait for creatures classed as a 'Demon' was the goal. Unfortunately it's not that easy though.

Just to clarify Garion isn't using Bloodlust with no thralls. He is using Bloodlust with thralls to replicate 'instability'. We thought long and hard about it, and Garion (wisely) decided to go with no special rules, that required coaches to play in a special way. Another option was bloodlust/pro/no thrall.

My rule for instability works like bloodlust in almost every way, except there are no thralls and 'instability' never causes a turnover. Even if the player was holding the ball it's like 'he isn't there to drop the ball'. This rule however was intended to be used with demons being pimped a bit statwise then given the neg-trait. More fitting to their origins.

I do however feel that none of the above rules can work with Loner, and no player should have Loner and an instability rule. That is to say, coaches should be able to re-roll instability.

Due to me not having the means to play test it (I play with a computer client) I haven't tested it. I currently play with the old old old Vamp rule, which works ok for instability.

I think blanket frenzy is the way to go. I can't see why the linos can't have S access now. M access is one of those things people are split on due to the look of khorne, more than khorne doesn't mutate. Berserker is a good name as is Khorne Marauder. Lineman just doesn't fit for me.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:19 pm 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 5117
Location: Copenhagen
Hi all,
sorry for leaving this for a while.

Darkson said:
Quote:
Yes, though it still needs M access.

Frogboy said:
Quote:
Just to be clear, I really like the changes. It makes much more sence from a fluff perspective for all the reasons youve stated in the OP.

I'm glad you both like the fit better :)
M-access is indeed a sticky issue. For me - and for others as far as I can tell - this one is slightly less clear than the other 5 roster flaws I've mentioned. I know Khorne followers do mutate, but perhaps because Khorne is the opponent of Tzeentch, the non-mutating mortal minions do make some sort of sense.

Perhaps a good compromise would be to let the Bloodletters and Herald (i.e. Daemons) have M-access - which wouldn't be that big a deal since they start with Claw. So the daemons would have M on doubles, and the mortals wouldn't.

CyberedElf said:
Quote:
Loner & Wild Animal on big guy. I would need a good reason to not see him with them.

He has them both. It was just sloppy editing. Same stats as Cyanides "Bloodthirster".

Quote:
I guess it is the same number of positionals as Chaos at only a slightly elevated cost. Still odd, but acceptable.

Indeed. 4 positionals and a Big Guy.

Quote:
M access on doubles?
Apothecary?
reroll's cost?

As a starting point just like the Cyanide team, so Nope, Yep and 70K. But see above regarding Mutations.

Thanks for your comments
Martin

_________________
Narrow Tier BB? http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm
Or just visit http://www.plasmoids.dk instead


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:07 am 
Emerging Star
Emerging Star

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:21 pm
Posts: 419
plasmoid wrote:
Hi all,
sorry for leaving this for a while.

Darkson said:
Quote:
Yes, though it still needs M access.

Frogboy said:
Quote:
Just to be clear, I really like the changes. It makes much more sence from a fluff perspective for all the reasons youve stated in the OP.

I'm glad you both like the fit better :)
M-access is indeed a sticky issue. For me - and for others as far as I can tell - this one is slightly less clear than the other 5 roster flaws I've mentioned. I know Khorne followers do mutate, but perhaps because Khorne is the opponent of Tzeentch, the non-mutating mortal minions do make some sort of sense.

Perhaps a good compromise would be to let the Bloodletters and Herald (i.e. Daemons) have M-access - which wouldn't be that big a deal since they start with Claw. So the daemons would have M on doubles, and the mortals wouldn't.

Martin


Deamons don't mutate, so it would be the other way around.

Tzeentch real niche is magic and Khorne doesn't use magic. However the other 3 chaos gods have significant visible mutations, whereas Khorne does not. I think on doubles for the linos and beastmen are ok.

I wouldn't be opposed to this roster as I am the original, but Khorne are essentially killers.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:03 am 
Da Spammer
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:04 pm
Posts: 23576
Location: Fundamentaling for the BB Illuminati
Khorne followers (mortal and Daemon) mutate as much as any other god's followers (Tzeentch excepted). Basically, unless you're going to claim that the Chaos roster is actually a Tzeentch roster then M access on normals is needed.

Khorne is the enemy and opponent of Slaanesh, not Tzeentch (has been since at least the late 80's).

_________________
SWTC 2017 Stunty Cup winner - never again (until next time!)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:04 am 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 5117
Location: Copenhagen
Hi Darkson to and Harvestmouse,
regarding Mutation access - to be honest this is not something I feel strongly about.
I want to get the fluff right (or at least acceptable to the majority) and I also want to stray too far from the Cyanide roster.

Harvestmouse said:
Quote:
Deamons don't mutate, so it would be the other way around.

I get that - and I used to have a homemade all-daemon team, where the daemons didn't have M-access for that very reason.
However, the only official daemonic entity currently in BB is the Beast of Nurgle - and it has M (on doubles) , so there is a precedent there.

Quote:
I wouldn't be opposed to this roster as I am the original, but Khorne are essentially killers.

Glad to hear it. And I do think that roster could be quity killy. The 3 daemons can do a lot of damage.

Darkson said:
Quote:
Khorne followers (mortal and Daemon) mutate as much as any other god's followers (Tzeentch excepted). Basically, unless you're going to claim that the Chaos roster is actually a Tzeentch roster then M access on normals is needed.

I get that - and I apologize for my memory of Slaves to Darkness being a bit fuzzy :wink: :wink:
On the other hand, see Harvestmouse's reply above.
It's not that I quite disagree with you, but I think his description/perception of Khorne is fairly common. I certainly don't remember seeing the lack of M access being the big deal back when the Cyanide roster was discussed.

One line of thinking is that Khorne doesn't only attract "cultists", but also at the lowest level plain killers. Perhaps these could make sense as the linemen. Plain ol' Thugs?
On the other hand, we certainly have precedent that all kinds of beastmen have access to M on singles, so I'd keep that - further boosting the killy aspect of the team.

That would leave me with:
0-16 60K Thug 6338 Frenzy G (no P)
0-2 90K Khorngor 6338 Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut - GSM
0-2 120K Bloodletters 6418 Frenzy, Claw, Regen - GS(M)
0-1 180K Herald 6519 Frenzy, Claw, Regen, Horns, Juggernaut + Loner, Wild Animal - S(M)
Rerolls 70K. Apoth 50K

Cheers
Martin

_________________
Narrow Tier BB? http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm
Or just visit http://www.plasmoids.dk instead


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Khorne team more fluffy
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:25 am 
Da Spammer
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:04 pm
Posts: 23576
Location: Fundamentaling for the BB Illuminati
If Khorne Thugs don't get M access then you need to remove it from Pact Marauders.

_________________
SWTC 2017 Stunty Cup winner - never again (until next time!)


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Board index » Blood Bowl » House Rules forum


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to: